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Thread: Thoughts and Findings related to the Maranatha "Key" Pt. II

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    jlockest is offline Expert Twelever Sapphire jlockest is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayward View Post
    There were not comment's' in the plural sense with regard to the observable geometry. I phrased as a question "Are the facts the observable geometry?" Then you have decided to redirect the discussion to introduce your opinion about whether or not (again) it is or is not possible whether Poussin could have provided this information. This approach is rather tiresome, since we have already determined that it can be both possible and not possible.

    The tilted hexagram as a shape is a fact. The fact that it can be drawn tilted at exactly the same degree in relationship to the frame across several paintings using exact compositional points within the painting to construct it is a fact. I have addressed it also here: Hidden Geometry in Da Vinci, Rennes le Chateau, and Maranatha Et in Arcadia Ego: Guest Post by Hayward Gladwin – Mysterious Writings. If you are refuting it based on either a personal bias or lack of time invested in the subject, I can't go any further into this discussion.

    Again- your final paragraph addresses whether or not it is or is not possible for the Masonic associations to appear in the church, using circumstantial knowledge of what the opinions are of others to help support your case that it isn't possible. It is both possible and not possible. Questioning whether or not a high ranking Mason would or would not A. Make the same associations or B. Care to have cause to publicly comment on them is an extremely weak position.
    Really? A fact in what sense? If I then draw two overlapping circles on the same image - is that a fact simply because I drew them and they therefore exist? You have no way of showing intent.
    If you want to rehash what was said on the other forum Hayward, then why not simply answer the questions there with regard to the points in the geometric shape being arbitrary .
    Can you please say how and in what sense the geometric shape is a 'fact'.?

    Good grief H - this discussion was/is about 'fact' or so I thought - not whether it's possible that the Church at RLC has Masonic symbolism. Of course it's possible. But just because a floor is tassellated and there is blue paint doesn't make it Masonic.

    And I repeat (despite Ruby's stunning post on the 'facts' in D's exposes), D's writings so far have not provided any facts that further illuminate RLC or any other mystery.

    And just to close - another comments from D about the importance of facts (facts - not theory, speculation, conjecture mind):

    '....[17:43] <cthree> Are you confident that Poussin possessed the key (i.e., is there
    [17:43] <cthree> factual evidence that he actually knew it (or just circumstantial
    [17:43] <cthree> evidence that suggests it)?
    [17:44] <sacred_prize>  Factual evidence, so beyond confident. I know how weird that sounds, it was a shock to us as well
    [17:44] <cthree> so very confident,
    [17:45] <cthree> you have seen factual evidence?
    [17:45] <sacred_prize> Oh YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!! ......'

  2. #312
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    Jlockest/horatio: no need to pose emotional content in your responses to trigger reaction. The point is that you do not have a constructive argument on your side and as well you can not even see that your position only adresses the question of whether or not the possibility exists.

    No need to rush to conclusions out of fear that some one will reach a determination you dont like.

    You also dont need to recite issues about whether D's work is dull of facts or not as I have already adressed the position that he does not oresent the work as fact.

    You are stuck in a repetitive cycle clinging on to hope of proving the whole thing is invalid with reason of external circumstances that have no bearing on the core of what is being adressed.

    If you look closely at all of the work, pick up the compasses and straight edge yourself and do the work you will see why it cant be arbitrary. Not because I say so but because you will prove to yourself what is happening.

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    Next response: " Why pick this point connected to that point. Why choose this center point and not some other point".
    Answer: because those other points would in fact be arbitrary.

    Next response: "good grief, so arent you basically saying that you chose the points in the composition to create the geometry and thus ended with the result you and perhaps not which was intended?"
    Answer: whether or not I chose the points to create the shape out of randomness (which can't the case because they have to reflect the specificity of the shape- random points wont create a hexigram) is actually beside the issue of fact which is that the exact same shape can be replicated in these very paintings, justifying the shape on all sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayward View Post
    Next response: " Why pick this point connected to that point. Why choose this center point and not some other point".
    Answer: because those other points would in fact be arbitrary.

    Next response: "good grief, so arent you basically saying that you chose the points in the composition to create the geometry and thus ended with the result you and perhaps not which was intended?"
    Answer: whether or not I chose the points to create the shape out of randomness (which can't the case because they have to reflect the specificity of the shape- random points wont create a hexigram) is actually beside the issue of fact which is that the exact same shape can be replicated in these very paintings, justifying the shape on all sides.
    In other words what is presented can be accomplished using connected features of the images whether you want it to or dont want it to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    Really? A fact in what sense? If I then draw two overlapping circles on the same image - is that a fact simply because I drew them and they therefore exist? You have no way of showing intent.
    If you want to rehash what was said on the other forum Hayward, then why not simply answer the questions there with regard to the points in the geometric shape being arbitrary .
    Can you please say how and in what sense the geometric shape is a 'fact'.?

    Good grief H - this discussion was/is about 'fact' or so I thought - not whether it's possible that the Church at RLC has Masonic symbolism. Of course it's possible. But just because a floor is tassellated and there is blue paint doesn't make it Masonic.

    And I repeat (despite Ruby's stunning post on the 'facts' in D's exposes), D's writings so far have not provided any facts that further illuminate RLC or any other mystery.

    And just to close - another comments from D about the importance of facts (facts - not theory, speculation, conjecture mind):

    '....[17:43] <cthree> Are you confident that Poussin possessed the key (i.e., is there
    [17:43] <cthree> factual evidence that he actually knew it (or just circumstantial
    [17:43] <cthree> evidence that suggests it)?
    [17:44] <sacred_prize>  Factual evidence, so beyond confident. I know how weird that sounds, it was a shock to us as well
    [17:44] <cthree> so very confident,
    [17:45] <cthree> you have seen factual evidence?
    [17:45] <sacred_prize> Oh YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!! ......'
    I am not aware of what D's factual evidence is nor do I pretend to. I am notnworking to advocate for D nor do I necessarily share his assumption. We should be able to determine these things for ourselves.

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    Why is the skeptical position always the one that seems most afraid of the conclusions others might get to before they have actually presented it?

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    "You can't be suggesting..."
    "You cant expect us to..."
    "Surely that doesn't mean..."

    The inferences are your own. Take a position--- don't rely on the consensus opinions of others to base how you inform yourself.

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    Not unless there's a fire and everyone else knows the way to the exit, and you do not.
    WE DIE TO KNOW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubyfelixir View Post
    Not unless there's a fire and everyone else knows the way to the exit, and you do not.
    Or unless you want to be sure you are the one who gets out so you dont want others to know.

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    jlockest is offline Expert Twelever Sapphire jlockest is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayward View Post
    Jlockest/horatio: no need to pose emotional content in your responses to trigger reaction. The point is that you do not have a constructive argument on your side and as well you can not even see that your position only adresses the question of whether or not the possibility exists.
    I'm not sure at all as to what you're talking about. What emotional content? The constructive argument here was that D had not used any facts in his articles to further illuminate RLC. His articles have (the ones I've seen) been based on 'perhaps', 'maybe', 'could be' etc. The whole premise (if you believe what D said) was that he was on Humblemason looking for approbation - ie he was unsure himself of what he was saying and was looking for his articles to be 'criticised'
    I think you're trying to conflate the discussion here, with the one on the other forum and are then confusing the two. I would suggest that, if you want to continue, the discussion re symbolism is left to the other forum and the current discussion re D and the use of facts to support his ideas stays here - so then there's a clear demarcation.




    Quote Originally Posted by hayward
    No need to rush to conclusions out of fear that some one will reach a determination you dont like.
    Fear of what H? And who is rushing to conclusions? I don't think I've come to a conclusion yet. Normally conclusions come at the end of discussions after you hear whet the other person has to say don't they?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hayward
    You also dont need to recite issues about whether D's work is dull of facts or not as I have already adressed the position that he does not oresent the work as fact.

    D does present his works as fact. That is the whole point. The interviews with D stressed that the key/solution etc of the LRB was based on provable fact. Hence the quotes I've posted. They are his words not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayward
    You are stuck in a repetitive cycle clinging on to hope of proving the whole thing is invalid with reason of external circumstances that have no bearing on the core of what is being adressed.
    I don't think I'm stuck in a cycle - as what I was posting here was nothing to do with what I was discussing with you. They were two separate discussions of separate topics as far as I was concerned. So I'll address your image and symbolism topic on the other forum where it was raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayward
    If you look closely at all of the work, pick up the compasses and straight edge yourself and do the work you will see why it cant be arbitrary. Not because I say so but because you will prove to yourself what is happening.
    OK - I'll reply on the other forum.

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