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Thread: Thoughts and Findings related to the Maranatha "Key" Pt. II

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    Nice to see you guys still willing to slug it out.

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    jlockest is offline Expert Twelever Sapphire jlockest is on a distinguished road
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    H,
    Well you're either fed up with trying to get your point across (very likely), or I've hit a nerve (less likely) or something else completely (again very likely)..... But I have a sneaky suspicion then that none of your 'sacred geometry' images actually conform to D's 45 degree tilt - looking back the Da Vinci Madonna of The Rocks appears way off.
    So could that be it? Are you stumped, because YOU'VE effectively already done what I asked? IE your images have been rotated a few degrees, and the points you hit YOU'VE assigned significance to? Now that would be ironic wouldn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    ..... But I have a sneaky suspicion then that none of your 'sacred geometry' images actually conform to D's 45 degree tilt - looking back the Da Vinci Madonna of The Rocks appears way off. \?
    But you see, thats the just the thing though, its NOT.

    This is why it has become boring to engage in a conversation with someone who draws such conclusions based on assumptions.

    And is why I'm respectfully moving on from the conversation.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayward View Post
    But you see, thats the just the thing though, its NOT.

    This is why it has become boring to engage in a conversation with someone who draws such conclusions based on assumptions.

    And is why I'm respectfully moving on from the conversation.....
    H,
    OK, I've downloaded a tool that has an angle measuring facility and it seems that:
    1) The titlted hexagram geometry on the Dagobert image is tilted at about 41-42 degrees.
    2) The tilted hexagram geometry on the Poussin self portrait is tilted at about 41-42 degrees
    3) The tilted hexagram geometry on the Madonna image is tilted at about 75 degrees

    Obviously I'm new to the tool and I may be measuring the angles incorrectly.....
    So the assumptions seem to be right - it doesn't seem that any of the three geometrical shapes are tilted at 45 degrees.

    Just to confirm how I performed the measurements.
    1) Right clicked on the images on the 'Mysterious Writings' web site and chose 'Save Image As'
    2) Opened the saved image in the new tool (GIMP)
    3) Used the compasses feature (how ironic) to measure the tilt of the hexagram by clicking on the top point (north east) and extending the measure lines to the point at the bottom point (south west)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    H,
    ...
    3) Used the compasses feature (how ironic) to measure the tilt of the hexagram by clicking on the top point (north east) and extending the measure lines to the point at the bottom point (south west)
    .....sorry, that should read from the 'north west' to 'south east'.......

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    jlockest is offline Expert Twelever Sapphire jlockest is on a distinguished road
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    H,
    Maybe you could post saying how you're measuring your 45 degree 'tilted hexagram' angle? But as you're not reading this, then you probably won't see this....so a bit of a pointless post eh?

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    H,
    So you're either ignoring this thread or you don't want to reply.

    It does seem a bit disingenuous though that you take a premise put forward by D, where the emphasis in constructing the specific geometry appears to be in the angle of the tilt, and then draw random tilted geometry on a couple of images purporting to be then is some way related to D's construct.

    It then seems that you have multiple issues.

    You can't state why you select certain points on the images or documents.
    You draw geometry at arbitrary angles.
    Those arbitrary angles then touch points that you use to confirm your construct, which would then appear to make the points arbitrary as well.

    Maybe I have got this wrong and D wasn't concerned about the angle of the tilt (45 degrees) - and any tilt would do - but that doesn't appear to be true given his instructions on how to create a 45 degree tilted hexagram.

    I'm not sure if D reads this forum any more - I doubt it. Maybe you could get clarification through Mysterious Writings about the significance of the angle?

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    1. Virgin of the Rocks is actually at 45 degrees exactly. Flip your compass horizontally. As per the idea presented through the meno square, the hexagram can be produced from either set of opposing angles of the square so I find this to be perfectly acceptable.

    2. The Dagobert parchment hexagram is 2 degrees off of 45 degrees. Schellenberger and Andrews claimed that the hexagram was 1-1/2 degrees off. (I will demonstrate the full results of this in the next post). After straightening out the parchment as accurately as possible to the horizontal plane, I have found the most accurate result is approximately 2 degrees. Originally I had used a horizontally-aligned square with 45 degree lines drawn through each corner as the proof for the angle. Now that I have also downloaded a "screen ruler" I can make more accurate measurements. Duncan referred to his "key" as being based on the components of 681. Another researcher, Paul Karren, who talks about a "681 Armature" also refers to a geometric form on the parchment here and you can see in the final image of that article that he had marked the points of the hexagram around the perimeter of the circle.

    3. Duncan himself had claimed that there was a tilted hexagram in Poussin's second Self-Portrait in his Time Monk Project article. Whether I drew exactly what he was talking about is another issue. The drawing I presented was drawn a couple years ago. Looking at it again now, I see that it does not address using "a stretch of fabric across his shoulders. Using this one can discover why Poussin painted the ring on his finger so that it faced the ‘on-looker’ and not where it would actually sit on the top of his finger."

    4. Duncan has often referred to the hexagram as "key". The idea that the "key" was meant to unlock a "lock" is another idea commonly expressed. The fact that D had presented the key in his article with reference to its meaning being relevant to the degrees of Freemasonry support the idea that the artists might have used it in their paintings to "hold(s) a message of the painter’s initiation to an understanding." It would seem in retrospect that Duncan's entire idea is based on these components of Freemasonry, in addition to the Platonic Solids, which was also an idea explored on his Humble Mason site.

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    Image no. 1 shows the parchment slightly off alignment with a perpendicular grid.


    Image no. 2 shows the correction of the parchment to align better with the grid.


    Image no. 3 shows the result of laying a straight edge over the line pointing towards the text and seeing it cross over the "+" sign in the text.


    Image no. 4 shows taking the straight edge and laying over the two "+" signs in the right areas of the text.


    Image no. 5 shows the alignment of the image to a horizontal line to thus measure the angle produced by the two lines.


    Image no. 6 shows the measurement of this angle to be exactly 60degrees. Considering the common knowledge that an equilateral triangle produces 3 interior angles of 60 degrees, finding such a measurement in the parchment is at least enough to establish reason to test the theory that one might be revealed in the document.


    Image no. 7 shows the result of laying a straight edge over the last "+" sign and back to the origin of the first line, using the interior angle of the "device" there. The measurement of the angles produced here are 90 degrees and 30 degrees, OR, exactly one-half of an equilateral triangle. If an equilateral triangle was not being suggested thus far by the maker of the document, then they had gone to great lengths to unwittingly make one available in the document this way.


    Image no. 8 labels the 30 degree angle and orients the image back to the horizontal plane.


    Image no. 9 demonstrates what occurs when one duplicates the first 30-60-90 triangle and flips it horizontally to produce an equilateral 60-60-60 degree triangle.


    With knowledge of equilateral triangular geometry present, while taking one's straight edge and bisecting the opposite 60 angle and making it perpendicular with its opposite side, it is noted in image 10 that it overlaps a dot next to a letter in the lower left.


    Image no. 11 shows the line produced by these two points.


    Image 12 shows the angle measurements that have been produced so far, but also shows how the center point of the triangle is produced.


    While testing the accuracy of this new center point, in Image 13 we train the point of compass on the intersection near the "R" and the pencil point on the "+" sign where the first angle was produced.


    Image 14 shows the line created by laying the straight edge over the center point of the triangle and circle and the lower point of the triangle.


    Image 15 shows the extension of line which produced the first 90 degree angle to extend past the circle (which I should have done earlier)


    mage 16 shows connecting the right side points at the intersections with the circle.


    Image 17 shows connecting the top point and lower left point at their intersections at the circle. Also is an arrow showing how this last line crosses through the remaining "+" sign in the parchment.


    Image 18 shows the connection of the last two points.

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    Some further notes on the "Dagobert Parchment"

    As mentioned, Schellenberger and Andrews had also "discovered" a tilted hexagram in the parchment. As it turned out, I didn't realize that they had already produced an image of this in their book "Tomb of God", which I had finally bought a copy of in December 2016. After seeing it, I know suspect that Tomb of God (released in 1996) was impetus for much of Maranatha, as clearly the geometry spoken of by Duncan was first revealed (or most recently revealed in proximity to Maranatha) in their book.


    Image 1 was the first indication that there could be correspondence. It is a screen grab from the TV series "Timewatch- The History of a Mystery (1996)", which convinced me to buy the book. here is a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXB3mfHeFIM


    Image 2 is scan from "Tomb of God", which shows Schellenberger and Andrew's hexagonal shape in the parchment. The image has been rotated by me to correct its position in relation to the horizontal so as to make accurate measurements of its angle of tilt. Although the authors state that the shape is 1-1/2 degrees of in their text, measurements from this position also reveal an approximate 2 degrees off from 45 degrees.

    As mentioned previously, the shape was referred to (or at least a component of the shape was referred to) by Paul Karren in his Rhedesium interview.

    Additionally, although no record exists since the site is no longer available, Duncan himself had confirmed in dialogue knowledge of the existence of this version of the tilted hexagram on his Humble Mason blog.

    To conclude, that fact that the "Dagobert Hexagram" is about 2 degrees off from 45 degrees on a parchment which was hand written is not enough to convince me that the idea is invalid. There is too much evidence to suggest otherwise.

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