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Thread: The Lost Word

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    Revelation is probably the most difficult book in the Bible to understand. My Pastor rarely wants to dive into it because you will get as many different opinions about that book as you have people discussing it at any given time. revelation basically means "to reveal" or pull back the veil. To me, it just screams "code", but only time will tell if I am right.

    I understand that saying Jesus is the Beast is really difficult to accept, and maybe that interpretation is only valid in Revelation 13:18. When I first started going down this path, it was a huge internal struggle to accept. I have been a Christian practically my whole life and this to me was almost blasphemous. It took a while before I could just allow myself to follow it. Right or wrong, the problem is that it works. If I had hit a dead end at any point, then we would not be having this discussion.
    How do you equate what it says in Rev 13 about the beast(s) (aren't there two anyway - and how does that fit with Jesus?) and how that then could apply to Jesus? How can G-d blaspheme G_d? It seems to me that if you replace the Beast with Jesus, Revelation just makes even less sense than it did before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    How do you equate what it says in Rev 13 about the beast(s) (aren't there two anyway - and how does that fit with Jesus?) and how that then could apply to Jesus? How can G-d blaspheme G_d? It seems to me that if you replace the Beast with Jesus, Revelation just makes even less sense than it did before.
    Yes, there does appear to be two. The code actually uses two spellings of Jesus and Iesus and two parallel solutions. So, in the sense of the code, Jesus can be both.

    I felt like I was the one being blasphemous, not G-d.

    I have always felt that there are so many things in the Bible where logic breaks down. The whole thing being a code actually makes more sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    Yes, there does appear to be two. The code actually uses two spellings of Jesus and Iesus and two parallel solutions. So, in the sense of the code, Jesus can be both.

    I felt like I was the one being blasphemous, not G-d.

    I have always felt that there are so many things in the Bible where logic breaks down. The whole thing being a code actually makes more sense to me.
    Doesn't that mean though that if you can't trust what is said in the Bible, then the importance of what you're looking at also diminishes - as the Bible goes from being the word of G_d to just some glorified LRB? And if the Bible is not to be taken as written, then what significance Jesus anyway - doesn't Jesus just reduce down to a code device and nothing more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    Doesn't that mean though that if you can't trust what is said in the Bible, then the importance of what you're looking at also diminishes - as the Bible goes from being the word of G_d to just some glorified LRB? And if the Bible is not to be taken as written, then what significance Jesus anyway - doesn't Jesus just reduce down to a code device and nothing more?
    I have thought long and hard about those questions. Combined with the few things Duncan has said, there could be some big issues. Looking at Masonry and the requirement that each initiate express a belief in a single God, not the Trinity, has some powerful implications. I really hate to say what I am thinking, so I will refrain from speculation until all has been revealed. Maranatha means "Come Lord", so what if it refers to the breaking of the code?

    Based on the level of effort put into this, I doubt the answers will be trivial, and I am also confident that it does not all boil down to nothing either. Thousands of people do not protect a treasure of nothing more than gold and riches with their lives. What would be the point? I think it will be enlightening and the end will ultimately justify the means. I hate to think what might happen if it doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    I have thought long and hard about those questions. Combined with the few things Duncan has said, there could be some big issues. Looking at Masonry and the requirement that each initiate express a belief in a single God, not the Trinity, has some powerful implications. I really hate to say what I am thinking, so I will refrain from speculation until all has been revealed. Maranatha means "Come Lord", so what if it refers to the breaking of the code?

    Based on the level of effort put into this, I doubt the answers will be trivial, and I am also confident that it does not all boil down to nothing either. Thousands of people do not protect a treasure of nothing more than gold and riches with their lives. What would be the point? I think it will be enlightening and the end will ultimately justify the means. I hate to think what might happen if it doesn't.
    I'm not sure that I follow the Trinity comment. AFAIK, Christianity (CofE and RCC) do not see the Trinity as three separate things. They are aspects of the one G_d aren't they? Isn't Jesus as the 'Son' of G_d, just an aspect of G_d and of the same 'stuff' as G_d? Or else you start introducing loads of theological issues (and isn't that what Nicaea tried to resolve?) - ie that Christianity isn't monotheistic, demi-gods...blah blah.... .
    Yes, people do protect riches and power - that is what all wars are about. Even religious Crusades are nothing more than power manipulation of a few over the many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    I'm not sure that I follow the Trinity comment. AFAIK, Christianity (CofE and RCC) do not see the Trinity as three separate things. They are aspects of the one G_d aren't they? Isn't Jesus as the 'Son' of G_d, just an aspect of G_d and of the same 'stuff' as G_d? Or else you start introducing loads of theological issues (and isn't that what Nicaea tried to resolve?) - ie that Christianity isn't monotheistic, demi-gods...blah blah.... .
    Yes, people do protect riches and power - that is what all wars are about. Even religious Crusades are nothing more than power manipulation of a few over the many.
    When you read tons of different books and websites, things get a little fuzzy on where you actually saw something, but I read somewhere that you can't be a Mason if you believe in the Trinity, but I also read that there is one degree that you must believe in the Christian Trinity and I don't remember which one it is. If you think your confused, try getting inside my head. LOL.

    i will see if I can find the references again. Would be nice if a Mason could help clarify some of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    When you read tons of different books and websites, things get a little fuzzy on where you actually saw something, but I read somewhere that you can't be a Mason if you believe in the Trinity, but I also read that there is one degree that you must believe in the Christian Trinity and I don't remember which one it is. If you think your confused, try getting inside my head. LOL.

    i will see if I can find the references again. Would be nice if a Mason could help clarify some of this.
    I think you're missing the point. The Trinity is G_d - only one G_d - just aspects of the whole. That is what i think Christianity believes isn't it? A bit like looking at an orange as peel, pith, flesh, juice, pips... No matter how you break it down it's all part of the one orange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    When you read tons of different books and websites, things get a little fuzzy on where you actually saw something, but I read somewhere that you can't be a Mason if you believe in the Trinity, but I also read that there is one degree that you must believe in the Christian Trinity and I don't remember which one it is. If you think your confused, try getting inside my head. LOL.

    i will see if I can find the references again. Would be nice if a Mason could help clarify some of this.
    The following excerpt about the Trinity is taken from What is Free Masonry and what do Free Masons believe?

    The Doctrine of Jesus and the Trinity:

    The Bibleís View: Jesus was God in human form (Matthew 1:18-24, John 1:1). Jesus is the second person of the trinity (Matthew 28:19, Mark 1:9-11). While on earth, He was fully human (Mark 4:38, Matthew 4:2) and fully divine (John 20:28, John 1:1-2, Acts 4:10-12). Christians should pray in Jesusí name and proclaim Him before others, regardless of offense to non-Christians (John 14:13-14, 1 John 2:23, Acts 4:18-20).

    Masonís View: There is no exclusivity in Jesus Christ or the Triune God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; therefore there is no doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ. It is deemed to be un-Masonic to invoke the name of Jesus when praying, or mention His name in the Lodge. Suggesting that Jesus is the only way to God contradicts the principle of tolerance. The name of Jesus has been omitted from biblical verses that are used in Masonic rituals. Jesus is on the same level as other religious leaders.

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    Another point to consider is the Maranatha concept of the unbalanced divide of four. This concept implies either 3 and 1, or 1 and 3.

    Taking that a step further, it could be seen as the Trinity, Three in One. Possibly part of the code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    The following excerpt about the Trinity is taken from What is Free Masonry and what do Free Masons believe?
    Still not sure I follow. Christians believe in G_d - one G_d, not three. How they approach G_d is up to them. I eat oranges, but my son only likes the juice. But we still like oranges. Masons do not focus on how you approach G-d and in general terms prohibit religious discussion within the lodge anyway - quite rightly IMHO as it then stops the arguments over whether the fruit or juice is better - and then the endless discussions on whether it should be served chilled or baked with honey and cinnamon...etc

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