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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    Has anyone even ever shown any link between the Templars and the Masons at all?
    Read "Freemasons Secrets" The True Descendants of The Knights Templar" by Bernard Kliemann

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    My two cents on Duncan's oath.. anyone see Jim Carey's movie yes man?.. in it, at one point, that when one breaks an oath to themselves, life can get rather dicey
    To enter a temple constructed wholly of invariable geometric proportions is to enter an abode of eternal truth

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    Across the sea is the best place for it. The Templars were expert seamen and the destination was not unknown to them. Investigate the Kensington Runestone, found in Minnesota. It is dated 1362 and has very strong connections to the Templars and Roslyn Temple. Of course there are deniers, just like people deny everything.
    Whoaaaaa. What proof of Templars travelling across the Atlantic and back again? Any? Surely if they had - or anyone else had - it would be known? So how on earth is it safe travelling in ships either like Greek galleys or small ships like Drake's Golden Hind - these ships weren't like today - built to withstand long journeys. They were used for land hugging trips - where land was never far away. That is why it took so long to get across the Atlantic (and back) - because it was such a perilous thing to do in the ships of the time (as no one knwe how big the oceans were) - even Wiki says:
    ....The Templars did have ships to carry personnel, pilgrims and supplies across the Mediterranean between the West and East and back, but if the Hospital after 1312 is any guide they did not have more than four galleys (warships) and few other ships, and if they needed more they hired them. They certainly could not spare ships to indulge in world exploration ... [T]he records of the port of La Rochelle show that the Templars were exporting wine by ship. This was not a fleet in any modern sense: again, those would have been transport vessels rather than warships, and the Templars probably hired them as they needed them, rather than buying their own. ... The ships would have been very small by modern standards, too shallow in draught and sailing too low in the water to be able to withstand the heavy waves and winds of the open Atlantic, and suited for use only in the relatively shallow waters of the continental shelf. What was more, they could not carry enough water to be at sea for long periods.[26].........

    So if the stone was from 1362, where are the records from the people who returned froim this trip - and is it me, but weren't the templars defunct by then? AND even if the stone is from European travellers, how do you leap from that to the assumption that the Templars had the Ark - and from that to the Templars then took the Ark to an, as then, unknown land?

    What exactly are the 'strong connections' between the Kensington Runestone and the Templars? And what is the connection between the Templars and Rosslyn Chapel (which AFAIK wasn't built until at least 100 years after the Templars)?

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    The Freemasons and Templars are not "mutually exclusive" organizations. They are "separately joined".

    Much like the Holy Grail started as a fictitious literary device and was later hijacked to protect a real treasure, so too was the Freemason organization in existence before the Templars (or descendants) decided to hijack the organization for a purpose beyond what it was originally created for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    What exactly are the 'strong connections' between the Kensington Runestone and the Templars? And what is the connection between the Templars and Rosslyn Chapel (which AFAIK wasn't built until at least 100 years after the Templars)?
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Hooked-Sec.../dp/0878393129

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    Read "Freemasons Secrets" The True Descendants of The Knights Templar" by Bernard Kliemann
    So he proves a link that has been 'accepted'? I must have missed that - I was still under the impression that no one had even shown that the Templars existed after the dissolution of their order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pws111 View Post
    The Freemasons and Templars are not "mutually exclusive" organizations. They are "separately joined".

    Much like the Holy Grail started as a fictitious literary device and was later hijacked to protect a real treasure, so too was the Freemason organization in existence before the Templars (or descendants) decided to hijack the organization for a purpose beyond what it was originally created for.
    How are they joined? Tell me exactly. Tell me when Freemasons (ie speculative masonry rather than lodges of actual masons with their own guilds) actually started - and show me the proof. Why on earth would one organisation hi jack another? In your theory who then hi jacked who? The masons hi jacked the Templars (but aren't you putting forward that the Templars were the ones who had the Ark?) or the Templars hi jacked the Masons ( but the Templars had been out of existance for 400 years before Masonry was established as an organisation) - and why in the second case hi jack anything at all - wouldn't being an organisation that everyone thought was defunct be far more advantageous for keeping secrets?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    Irrespective of what was hidden, who hid it, where it was hidden, when it was hidden, how it was hidden don't you have the same basic issue?

    1) It was being 'hidden' for a reason
    2) It was meant to be found
    The same basic issue as what?

    "It was being 'hidden' for a reason" is the same inquiry as "why was it 'hidden' there".

    However, yes, your point "It was meant to be found" would lead another useful question to investigate, "who was meant to find it"?


    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post

    If you accept that it was hidden to keep it from the profane, then it wasn't meant to be found by the profane, If you accept that it was meant to be discovered, then why hide it? If this secret is so important that it mustn't be lost and that it must be kept from the 'unworthy', then surely simply passing on what it is, where it is, blah...to someone you trust is preferable to alluding to it to all and sundry and just hoping that no one untrustworthy spots it - BUT - on the other hand wanting - no, requiring - that someone trustworthy does find it? Does that in anyway seem sensible to you?
    So, "Why hide it"? Another useful question. Short answer: I don't know.

    But I can think of a few possibilities though, if in fact we are to accept the possibility that something being hidden by someone is even true. In my line of deduction I have to leave open the precise identity of the secret, since no one has yet proven what it is. It is only useful to approach the subject with so much circumstantial evidence alluding to its existence, which was the point I was trying to make earlier. We can use any circumstantial evidence to support our many hypothesis; and since the investigation will not offer up either complete confirmation or denial, we are simply left with our personally-invested interests to test out and explore. The important thing is that we should be equally prepared to negate the possibility of these hypothesis as we are, equally, self-encouraged to prove what it is we wish for the secret to be.

    Here are the possibilities that I see that might answer the motive to hide a secret, or generally speaking, something important that was widely unknown and not understood. Lets start with the basic assumption that, for whatever reason, some agent left it somewhere because they wanted it to continue past their own life expectancy.

    A. "They" (whoever they are) were in possession of it, knew of its importance, but yet couldn't figure out what to do with it, hoping someone later would understand it, so they "deposited" the information into a source close to them.
    B. "They" knew of its significance, but couldn't really just expose it to the public, out of fear of persecuting those who were to receive it, so it appeared in disguise, in a way that didn't allude to its existence.
    C. "They" knew of its significance, but couldn't expose it to everyone because it essentially would not make sense to anyone without a deeper understanding of its context anyway. So it was put into the framework of ritual, allegory, etc. so that its significance might be understood more in full by those associated with it.
    D. "They" knew of its significance and it was placed close to a source whom, with some further development of understanding, might see it for what it is.

    The possibilities that I would lean towards would be D and C, since I am of the opinion that, if there is a secret, it is not a physical artifact but of a secret pertaining to ancient mystery (hermetic) traditions. Why do I think it is not a physical artifact? Because the source of these traditions have a strong basis in, and an ensuing, furthering renaissance surrounding, these hermetic and esoteric traditions. As well, their practices would naturally have appeared as a continuation or recovery of these "lost" traditions through its surviving documents, texts, oral traditions, and their focus not being entirely dependent on a literal Ark of the Covenant, a literal Grail, nor a literal Stone to pass onward. The reason why they are hidden, in this example, is because we would essentially be looking in the dark.

    In my opinion, and I would love to follow and watch a real uncovering of a physical Ark of the Covenant as much as the next person, if there is any Magic or slight of hand that is being performed, it is that a spiritual, anagogical subject is being mistaken as a literal, mundane object, because we can not conceive of anything other than the mundane or pragmatic. Even if we were to find a physical, literal Ark of the Covenant, then what? Are we meant to understand its valuable, and higher, symbolic meaning if we are to find it? I don't think so, I think it would be the opposite. That again, a physical, mundane object is somehow meant to be the repository of our hopes and aspirations.

    To divulge of a true, symbolic 'secret' in this context, that is- as a single-standing issue, would be entirely pointless, since the goal associated with the result is of many years of practice, focus, self-improvement, and study. To speak of its significance in terms of an identifiable item is what missing the point means. So, in other words, in the past, the original order that may have been around to teach of it's 'lesson' could not continue to be around to maintain its presence, and thus it may have been placed there with the trust that someone would see it and understand it in their own time.

    Going back to the reason why I strongly believe in the possibility that the Freemasons are not aware of it (at least a majority, I am perhaps even unfairly assuming), is because of their largely secularized outer-order which is depended upon by the higher organization itself to keep the organization intact, yet potentially seems to be allusive in providing further understanding, or perhaps not sufficient in necessarily providing it in terms of being passed down from individual understanding to individual understanding. As the organization evolves from a simple simple craft guild, to a somewhat sensationalized social and fraternal organization, to a hidden Speculative spiritual legion, the problem is that its largely anagogical (spiritual) teaching seems to have enormous potential of being completely ignored, and thus the true significance of what might be there is in danger of becoming completely dismissed.
    I truly hope that this is not actually the case and I respectfully apologize to anyone that might be offended if I am out of line or completely off-base in this assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    Now, following that concept, maybe the 'secret' here (much as in Masonry) wasn't meant to be hidden - but due to a lapse in diligence over time, was lost. So the paradox of hide and find disappears and it becomes just a case of rediscovering something that was once known. But then the Emerald Tablet is also just a work of fiction.
    Yes, I strongly agree with this as a possibility as well. The subject of the intent to hide, is not entirely necessary to explain the possible reality of its presence In other words, maybe there is actually something there we can respect the importance of, but we just don't understand the full meaning of. I am highly willing to accept this possibility, and, it leads me to the very point I was originally trying to establish with this thread about the potential threat of loss to understanding this meaning, should Freemasonry's traditions further weaken and become inadvertently abolished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlockest View Post
    So he proves a link that has been 'accepted'? I must have missed that - I was still under the impression that no one had even shown that the Templars existed after the dissolution of their order.
    Read the book. It is on Amazon Kindle. Very cheap.

    The order was dissolved, but not all were captured. You think they just went off into the sunset and lived happily ever after, never once meeting again or discussing anything among themselves?

    Duncan said that his team started with the assumption that the legends were true and asked themselves where does it lead?. What are the legends? Read the Timeline in Maranatha again, but this time pay attention and ask yourself why did they include each date and event. Duncan did not just pick random stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayward View Post
    "... the lines of separation were not that clear".

    They never are. One thing clear though is that the position relates to finding security within Freemasonry.
    To my eyes and observations, it looks like the organization is weakening though, and has been for awhile. The recent move to modernize things like the logo and such is a clear attempt to appeal to a new audience. But I personally don't think its model or structure of organization will succeed or endure in the contemporary age. It is completely out of step with current social ideologies to have private organizations engaged with secret matters that appear relevant to only themselves. Not that the subject isn't important or interesting, because it is, but that the actual social structure itself is a deterrent to outsiders in today's context. The focus in today's social climate is on personal mobility and personal empowerment within the larger social body, and although this is what Freemasonry might arguably espouse, the problem is its exclusivity.

    But I will certainly send some time and take a close look at your recent work though. Curious to learn more about your approach and discoveries.
    I somehow doubt that anyone will find much interest in this, but I just to conclude the reasoning I was trying to establish behind this Freemasonry thread.

    I wrote earlier about how I thought current Freemasonry is, as an organizational body, completely out of sync with contemporary culture, and I'd like to add another thought to that here.

    In today's global, communication-based culture, rather than exclusivity by means of an organizational entity, which may have been more appealing in the epoch of a Victorian public and private social dynamic, the trend today is instead towards an appeal of social mobility through personal empowerment, education, knowledge, or information. The importance of this is that I believe most people today would rather find means towards available information that is readily accessible, as opposed to investing an tremendous amount of faith and commitment towards an organization that from the outside appears entirely vague and unknown. Its not that people aren't interested in the subject, because I think there are large group that are, but they might instead rather look into these subjects on their own and avoid the dedicating of themselves to a fraternal society with potentially ambiguous aims. It is honestly why I have avoided attempting to join myself. And then, having to take an oath never to reveal anything. In the past, this might not have meant much as it does today, as people then might have felt more compelled by the prestige offered of a private society, by escaping the interior world of isolated, class anonymity.

    But today, I think that society in general is that fraternal organization, or at least active body that in the information age people want to be engaged with. I think there would be more people interested in joining the organisation if it offered some kind of education, like a college, wherein people could apply, get accepted, and be possibly inspired by a sense of getting something out of it. But not to hide away and to join in on an ideology that is potentially self-limiting in this regard, even though that is actually not its intent, and actually the opposite.

    The reason why I bring any of this up into the discussion is, if there actually is something important in the Masonic ritual that can not be found elsewhere (and I have to acknowledge strong probability in that being the case), and if Freemasonry itself is weakening and then seeking to change its course, and then potentially unaware of what they even possess, then there is a great chance that whatever it is will also disappear. I believe D has, in some ways, also expressed this position.

    So, the final question is this: Is the organization in its present state either a safe-house or a threat to the secret? What is more important? Reforming an organization potentially at the end of its turn, or for the sake of the reason that the organisation may have been created for in the first place?

    This is the appeal I am making in hopes that something might further be explained. And then maybe there is no need, and everything is safe.

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