+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: So what's the concensus?

  1. #1
    Sierra is offline Getting the hang of it. Copper Sierra is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    19

    Default So what's the concensus?

    Is this hunt solvable without extra clues? Do the clues in the book lead to the treasure?

  2. #2
    Rx Jeff's Avatar
    Rx Jeff is offline Good Twelever Aquamarine Rx Jeff is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    965

    Default

    One could conceivably solve Chapter Two without extra clues once it is established how the author's train of thought works. That being said, I believe that once the answers to chapters one and two are seen, it may lead to quick solutions for the rest of the chapters.

  3. #3
    Lobster's Avatar
    Lobster is offline Good Twelever Aquamarine Lobster is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    946

    Default

    Long post... I was reflecting a few days ago on why this hunt has been so difficult, and why so many people have gone on to do other things, so here are my thoughts.


    I am confident that there do exist perhaps even multiple paths to the required 20 numbers in each chapter. We will be able to look back in retrospect on any given chapter and say "hey look there and there and there, those were hints!" However, I am not convinced yet that they are discoverable without extra clues before the solution is announced. It's a little like having a massive pile of 40,000 different colored marbles, and at the end saying "duh, the red, purple, and orange marbles are right in front of you!".

    The problem has always been that while there may be paths present, the hunt appears to be designed such that a lot of information appears to be unused.

    What we appear to have is 5 different sorts of information going on at once in each chapter. Of those below, only #1 below is useful. #2, #3, #4, and #5 send you off on long, winding paths of incorrect submissions:


    1. The intended chapter solution and its hints. The 20 integer thing. And yes, I'm fairly sure there is validating and verifying information for each chapter. I have found some of it for both chapter 1 and chapter 2. A lot of it is very tenuous though because of #5 below. From our experience with chapter 1, we have to assume that some of the intended solution could be downright ilogical too.

    For example, in Chapter 1 we had the word "key" defined clearly and specifically as "one of the 20 integers" in the rules/introduction, yet the author redefined it in the term "omega key" to refer to an entire sequence of 10 numbers, which put anyone who had used logic to deduce 7=omega=key 20 on the wrong track for over a year. It's no coincidence 2 people solved the chapter on the same day when a clue finally told us "oh by the way, key means two completely different things", and the "7 problem" appears to exist in other chapters too ("disembodied numbers").

    For example, if you dig enough you will find in chapter 2 that there are at least a couple of frequently appearing numbers that must be important, yet there is conflicting or incomplete information on how they are to be used. Do they refer to page number? Line number? Letter number? Words to skip? Rows to skip? Values to use in a rotate/ceasar/etc? Sequence size? Hint at an encoding method? Who knows.

    2. Gold eagle related stuff. Remember that there are likely hints and other bits of relevant information scattered throughout these chapters that are part of the gold eagle hunt, which is a separate hunt overlaid atop each chapter's silver eagle hunt. I found a good chunk of what appears to be gold eagle stuff in Chapter 1 but it had all appearances of being silver eagle stuff, which put me on the wrong track for 6 months.

    3. Irrelevant hidden physical directions to real-world locations. Not sure if you noticed, but if you read between the lines, there are real life locations hinted at in these chapters. Considering this is a treasure hunt, I assumed we were looking for the location of treasure, and perhaps those locations would lead us to our numbers (a logical conclusion I would say). From what we understand so far, all of this physical stuff is irrelevant. At least, we've never had a single clue tell us that it is in any way relevant. I have spent so much time chasing this likely irrelevant stuff you have no idea. Yes, I'm looking at you Donna's Store, Cedar Grist Mill, islands in New York city, a place in San Francisco where a lot of people live, and Diner on Lewis River road. In this treasure hunt, encoded letters in text appear to be more important than hints at the locations of treasure. I'm not sure what all of this stuff is doing in a hunt that doesn't use it, but it's as confusing as heck.

    4. The red herrings. Puzzles are tough enough when you can make trustworthy conclusions. We are pretty much told that there are red herrings, which means that anything you read could very well be false. It is quite possible, and indeed probable that Ron likely has sprinkled not only red herrings, but crumbs of information that validate those red herrings. If a woman has red hair (or a bird has red eyes), does that mean they are red herrings? Or does it mean RED! Alert! - LOOK HERE -- this is important! If a line mentions a wild goose chase, is just that LINE false? Is the paragraph that it's in false? The page? The whole chapter? Or is it just words with no red herring significance at all? Who knows. Even when we're told something is a wild goose chase we're not sure what the scope of that wild goose chase is, or even if it is a wild goose chase because we've never had clues in 3 years that tell us how to interpret clues and hints. It makes every single thing you read inherently untrustable. We even have an "extra" clue that calls itself a red herring, while the other part of the clue contains a bible verse. Does that mean the bible verse (being part of the clue) is a red herring? Or is only the first part a red herring? Again, it's ambiguous. We can reach no logical conclusions, even when the clue tells us that it (or part of it) is a red herring.

    5. Writer's exposition. It's simply impossible to know whether something written in a story is an intended hint or just an author telling a story. There are specific things that Ron appears to use throughout the chapters that help tell you what might or might not be important, but in most cases it's still very difficult to tell specifically what the hint is, or what specific phrase/sentence/thought is being referred to.

    So that's why this hunt is so difficult. A good 4/5ths of the information contained in it likely has no bearing on the actual answer for a silver eagle. And I didn't even get to the articles/archives which are their own symbolically tangled rats nest of frustration.

    Is a chapter solvable without extra hints? Sure, the path and answer is likely there. I think Ron is being 100% honest when he says that. It's just at this time incredibly difficult and extremely unlikely because it's currently too difficult to tell what is important and what is not.

    As Jeff says, if we get solution information for chapter 2 / 3 over time, perhaps solving some of the later chapters without clues may be possible as we can examine better what "stuff" is actually relevant, and what's to be ignored. I hope, at least.

  4. #4
    guttom2 is offline Good Twelever Gold guttom2 is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
    Is this hunt solvable without extra clues? Do the clues in the book lead to the treasure?
    i dont see how its possible. but after we see the solutions to chapter 2, 3 and perhaps 4 we may understand the who solving mechanism better.

    the solutions should get more and more complex i think. as of yet, we dont know what we are up against or how complicated it can be.

  5. #5
    gizmo2337 is offline Good Twelever Gold gizmo2337 is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saanichton
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobster View Post
    Long post... I was reflecting a few days ago on why this hunt has been so difficult, and why so many people have gone on to do other things, so here are my thoughts.


    I am confident that there do exist perhaps even multiple paths to the required 20 numbers in each chapter. We will be able to look back in retrospect on any given chapter and say "hey look there and there and there, those were hints!" However, I am not convinced yet that they are discoverable without extra clues before the solution is announced. It's a little like having a massive pile of 40,000 different colored marbles, and at the end saying "duh, the red, purple, and orange marbles are right in front of you!".

    The problem has always been that while there may be paths present, the hunt appears to be designed such that a lot of information appears to be unused.

    What we appear to have is 5 different sorts of information going on at once in each chapter. Of those below, only #1 below is useful. #2, #3, #4, and #5 send you off on long, winding paths of incorrect submissions:


    1. The intended chapter solution and its hints. The 20 integer thing. And yes, I'm fairly sure there is validating and verifying information for each chapter. I have found some of it for both chapter 1 and chapter 2. A lot of it is very tenuous though because of #5 below. From our experience with chapter 1, we have to assume that some of the intended solution could be downright ilogical too.

    For example, in Chapter 1 we had the word "key" defined clearly and specifically as "one of the 20 integers" in the rules/introduction, yet the author redefined it in the term "omega key" to refer to an entire sequence of 10 numbers, which put anyone who had used logic to deduce 7=omega=key 20 on the wrong track for over a year. It's no coincidence 2 people solved the chapter on the same day when a clue finally told us "oh by the way, key means two completely different things", and the "7 problem" appears to exist in other chapters too ("disembodied numbers").

    For example, if you dig enough you will find in chapter 2 that there are at least a couple of frequently appearing numbers that must be important, yet there is conflicting or incomplete information on how they are to be used. Do they refer to page number? Line number? Letter number? Words to skip? Rows to skip? Values to use in a rotate/ceasar/etc? Sequence size? Hint at an encoding method? Who knows.

    2. Gold eagle related stuff. Remember that there are likely hints and other bits of relevant information scattered throughout these chapters that are part of the gold eagle hunt, which is a separate hunt overlaid atop each chapter's silver eagle hunt. I found a good chunk of what appears to be gold eagle stuff in Chapter 1 but it had all appearances of being silver eagle stuff, which put me on the wrong track for 6 months.

    3. Irrelevant hidden physical directions to real-world locations. Not sure if you noticed, but if you read between the lines, there are real life locations hinted at in these chapters. Considering this is a treasure hunt, I assumed we were looking for the location of treasure, and perhaps those locations would lead us to our numbers (a logical conclusion I would say). From what we understand so far, all of this physical stuff is irrelevant. At least, we've never had a single clue tell us that it is in any way relevant. I have spent so much time chasing this likely irrelevant stuff you have no idea. Yes, I'm looking at you Donna's Store, Cedar Grist Mill, islands in New York city, a place in San Francisco where a lot of people live, and Diner on Lewis River road. In this treasure hunt, encoded letters in text appear to be more important than hints at the locations of treasure. I'm not sure what all of this stuff is doing in a hunt that doesn't use it, but it's as confusing as heck.

    4. The red herrings. Puzzles are tough enough when you can make trustworthy conclusions. We are pretty much told that there are red herrings, which means that anything you read could very well be false. It is quite possible, and indeed probable that Ron likely has sprinkled not only red herrings, but crumbs of information that validate those red herrings. If a woman has red hair (or a bird has red eyes), does that mean they are red herrings? Or does it mean RED! Alert! - LOOK HERE -- this is important! If a line mentions a wild goose chase, is just that LINE false? Is the paragraph that it's in false? The page? The whole chapter? Or is it just words with no red herring significance at all? Who knows. Even when we're told something is a wild goose chase we're not sure what the scope of that wild goose chase is, or even if it is a wild goose chase because we've never had clues in 3 years that tell us how to interpret clues and hints. It makes every single thing you read inherently untrustable. We even have an "extra" clue that calls itself a red herring, while the other part of the clue contains a bible verse. Does that mean the bible verse (being part of the clue) is a red herring? Or is only the first part a red herring? Again, it's ambiguous. We can reach no logical conclusions, even when the clue tells us that it (or part of it) is a red herring.

    5. Writer's exposition. It's simply impossible to know whether something written in a story is an intended hint or just an author telling a story. There are specific things that Ron appears to use throughout the chapters that help tell you what might or might not be important, but in most cases it's still very difficult to tell specifically what the hint is, or what specific phrase/sentence/thought is being referred to.

    So that's why this hunt is so difficult. A good 4/5ths of the information contained in it likely has no bearing on the actual answer for a silver eagle. And I didn't even get to the articles/archives which are their own symbolically tangled rats nest of frustration.

    Is a chapter solvable without extra hints? Sure, the path and answer is likely there. I think Ron is being 100% honest when he says that. It's just at this time incredibly difficult and extremely unlikely because it's currently too difficult to tell what is important and what is not.

    As Jeff says, if we get solution information for chapter 2 / 3 over time, perhaps solving some of the later chapters without clues may be possible as we can examine better what "stuff" is actually relevant, and what's to be ignored. I hope, at least.
    The quest is tough, and if it was easy, that wouldn't be much fun or serve any purpose. I am curious though whether one could figure out a chapter without clues. Are the answers all in the book, or is it just that hard? I hope to finish up winter house prep and be back soon. cheers

  6. #6
    guttom2 is offline Good Twelever Gold guttom2 is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    527

    Default

    i do not believe you could solve the chapters without the extra clues.

  7. #7
    gizmo2337 is offline Good Twelever Gold gizmo2337 is an unknown quantity at this point
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Saanichton
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Yeah, I agree. There isn't enough to go on without the clues. It will be interesting though to see the chapter two solution. I think that some of my chapter one notes that didn't fit in with the solution may have a greater purpose. Who knows though, could be red herrings lol

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts