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Thread: Chapter 3 clues

  1. #31
    Lobster's Avatar
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    I like the idea of fewer Facebook clues to be honest. I'd much prefer if we got fewer frequent clues, and clues that actually helped people who had already done some deeper digging into the book. The way this hunt is currently operating is that you are in some ways at an advantage to ignore the book entirely and just collect Facebook clues. I have found a lot of clues for C1 and C2 in the book and related resources, but 95% of the Facebook clues never referenced them or helped interpret them.

    The vast majority of the original chapter clues/leads/hints I have found were ambiguous to me pre-solution and could have really used some Facebook help. Far too many times I have been led to something that I KNOW is important by the original book as released, yet results in a roadblock that has no clear way to proceed.

    This idea that you can ignore the vast quantities of clues, hints, symbols, and intriguing webs of relationships that exist in the book and entirely bypass the original intended solution has always seemed to be a bit strange to me. How about some assistance with understanding the clues and symbols that already exist?

    Not my hunt, and I'm not complaining. As the irritating phrase goes, it is what it is. I dont care if i never win a thing. I'm just here to try to solve a puzzle that was in the book I bought and in a manner that is as close to the way the author intended as practically possible.

  2. #32
    Vincentournier is offline Junior Twelever +1 Bronze Vincentournier is an unknown quantity at this point
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    How do you know that the author intended that solving any chapter was almost possible ?

    You are just assuming this for a fact, just assuming after you made up yourself logical way to solve the first 2 chapters without clues ....

  3. #33
    choirmaster is offline Junior Twelever Copper choirmaster is an unknown quantity at this point
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    I agree with Lobster. Weren't we told early on that "everything we need to solve" is located in The Book, on The Website, and on the Sponsor Websites? And by the website, clearly must be meant greathunt.com, featuring three confirmed places for additional clues (Eagle Eye, Optic Cross, and Invisible Ink) plus the Archives, plus who knows what else. If "on the Website" meant "plus Facebook Clues" I think that's a stretch from what we were told and I'm pretty sure we should've been told "everything can be solved with the book, website, and sponsor website, but it would be alarmingly surprising if anyone actually solved a chapter that way. So we will be supplementing with Facebook clues." Or something to that effect.

    By the way, I also am not complaining about it. It just doesn't seem like the meal we were handed originally.

  4. #34
    Gammon's Avatar
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    On March 21 Ron posted on FB that "We fully expected chapter 2 to have been solved by now." That was before any additional clues were provided on FB.

    If so, that confirms that no additional clues are needed to solve that chapter. Assuming that's credible then I think we can reasonable conclude that no additional FB clues are needed to solve any chapter.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

  5. #35
    Rx Jeff's Avatar
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    Unless there is a Ron Shore algorithm as an alternate way to solve chapter two or your name is Miss Cleo, there is no way to solve it that way. This hunt is totally author controlled in that you cannot win until he is ready for you to win.

  6. #36
    choirmaster is offline Junior Twelever Copper choirmaster is an unknown quantity at this point
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    @Gammon:

    So, amongst all the brilliant minds on this forum, who have solved 240 questions/ciphers, countless Sudoku, and some even the numbers of 13.5, where has one suggested a way to come up with how to divine the Chapter One OR Chapter Two solution FROM THE BOOK, WEBSITE, AND SPONSOR WEBSITE? Even after those chapters have been solved, we are left searching those two chapters, trying to find some, any conceivable way to come up with the ordering of the numbers 1-20. There are, admittedly, fewer and fewer options:

    1. Ron is smart; we are not.
    2. Ron is smart; we are smart.
    3. Ron is not smart; we are not smart.

    If these are the only three (and I believe basically they are the only three, it must be the case that #2 is true prima facie. So if an obviously smart person designed the Hunt, and obviously smart people are solving aspects of the Hunt, then it seems equally obvious that the chapter solutions should be able to be seen post-solve not only by Ron, but by us.

    Or maybe (channelling my inner Doc, whom I respect)... The three options listed above ARE in fact the Omega Key, the Dove Key, and the Scratched Out Key. When we use all three keys together, we get: Ron=smart and not-smart, We=smart and not-smart. R=S & N, We=S & N.

    Then, We=Oui. So R=S & N and We=S & N. Or... R=SN=O. Our snow (job)? Arse, no? There must be something down this alley I just created

  7. #37
    Lobster's Avatar
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    There are really only three possibilities.

    Possibility 1: The contest rules and author are telling the truth. The author intended the hunt to be solvable without extra clues. What the intent was and what reality is may be very different in practice though.

    Possibility 2: The contest rules are true, but misleading, and Ron's claim "we fully expected C2 to be solved by now" was dishonest. The author intended all along that while chapters may be theoretically solvable, that there were so many solutions that the clues led to that in practice he ultimately would have to provide other information to unlock chapters.

    Possibility 3: It's a complete scam. There are no solutions. This is an evil plot to take unsuspecting armchair treasure hunters $40 and... er... give it away to people in England.



    [3] This scam accusation pops up occasionally and it just makes no sense to me. To start with, I wouldn't wish the self-publishing printed book business on my worst enemy. I have a family member in this business. Awful amount of work, awful margins, awful stocking, fulfillment, and printing issues. Not to mention massive competition for shelf space, marketing, visibility, etc. If you're going to run a scam selling niche treasure-hunting paper books, you need to go to scam artist school.

    Second, a scam would never have paid out $60,000 + expenses to two people. Promising large prizes and then honoring them wouldn't get you a seat on the Scammers Board of Directors.

    [2] Possible. I can see someone on the hook for $1.3 million in prizes having a lot of incentive to throttle and control the speed at which chapters are won. I'd be disappointed if this was the case though because it implies that the hunt is misleading, and many of the statements dishonest. This case is actually unprovable. It is completely impossible for Ron to prove intent, and completely impossible for us to determine what the intent was.

    So in the end, you have to ask yourself whether you trust the author or not. My gut says that Ron believes what he says. I believe that in Ron's mind he truly does believe the hunt is solvable by real people with no extra clues. I like to believe the best in people, so I believe Ron is honest and straightforward.


    [1] I like to believe we have case 1 above. I believe the hunt is theoretically solvable without clues, but most of it is likely not solvable in practice due to one or more of the following reasons:


    1. It's too hard. I attended a real life treasure hunt a few months ago where the winning team only solved 40% of the puzzles (Lady Lobster and I got 30%). The puzzle master was shocked at how difficult we all found it. The failure lay in the play testing. While each part of the hunt was reasonably solvable in play-testing, the final iteration of the hunt had everything all mixed together, like we have here. Having even straightforward solutions all mashed together increases difficulty exponentially. I wonder at times if these chapter solutions had any play-testing whatsoever, but the point is, even if they did, they could very well be too hard for real people to solve.


    2. It may be too inconsistent and error prone. Even the rules indicate that errors may very well be in here.

    Symbols are important in this book. Symbols NEED to be consistent, or there is no hope of a solution for anything. The problem is, right off the bat in Chapter 1 we were taught that symbols are not consistent.

    Chapter 1 redefined the tern "key" to mean two different things. Key now means "one of the 20 digits in the solution" (defined in the rules) and key means "a sequence of integers, i.e. 10 keys" (defined by the ghost of cooper past). Chapter 1 has rendered all hints in the entire book dealing with "keys" entirely ambiguous now. It is impossible to conclude anything related to keys because the symbolic language has been muddied up.

    Chapter 2 appears (on the surface) to have done the same for me to the terms "sequences", "half", and "equals". I have no idea what a sequence is anymore, since apparently it's now okay for 2 members of a 10 member sequence to be hidden or discovered in a manner different than the first 8.

    I have also run into big problems trying to disambiguate some of the major symbols related to red herrings. Without being able to clearly understand what designates a herring (both their symbols and their duration) *each and every time*, these chapters are unsolvable. I keep finding probable identifiers that sometimes appear to indicate herrings and sometimes not. I even see some attempts within the book to define these symbols, but in some of these cases this language is not at all clear or has circular information. Frustrating. While I have found many clever and creative things, I am actually getting close to giving up on the search for intended solutions because I'm starting to believe there may be too many inconsistencies.

    3. Perhaps there aren't enough people trying to solve it. Think about it: if you have 10,000 people working on a hunt, things will be discovered far faster than one in which 150 people are working on it.

    p.s. Choirmaster: I do see much of the solution for C1 and C2 (in the book) in retrospect. I can't post them here, because knowledge of them gives away parts of other chapters. This is why Ron has never posted them -- while solutions for chapters are all different, elements of them appear to be relevant for the future. I am confident that the solutions are there, but they are obscured by huge heaps of stuff unrelated to them. I am also 100% sure that I never would have been able to find these same intended solutions at book launch.

    Lobster

  8. #38
    choirmaster is offline Junior Twelever Copper choirmaster is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Yes, and to be clear, my three options are all meant to be contained within your "Possibility #1". I have never assumed dishonesty or a scam, I am just trying to relate what I see to what we have been told.

    I fully appreciate why Ron is not explaining things, and don't expect him to. I also appreciate the knowledge that people (like yourself) who are "further along" can start putting pieces together and find parts of solutions from the book.

    Which leaves us with, it's possible, it's just very very hard.

    I'm ok with that, too. Though it can be frustrating.

  9. #39
    Gammon's Avatar
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    Allow me to clarify my remarks.

    I never indicated that the chapters could be solved without additional clues. I clearly indicated that that is what Ron has indicated. Ask Ron!

    But what puzzles me is that with the additional clues Ron has provided he is seemingly not pointing us to the ostensibly textual clues he indicates are there. If the clues are within the text, I wonder, why is he not pointing them out to us?

    Baffling ... does anybody have a theory to explain this?

  10. #40
    Lobster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammon View Post
    But what puzzles me is that with the additional clues Ron has provided he is seemingly not pointing us to the ostensibly textual clues he indicates are there. If the clues are within the text, I wonder, why is he not pointing them out to us?

    Baffling ... does anybody have a theory to explain this?
    No idea, and that has been my biggest frustration with the facebook clues. They speak to people who have found nothing, not people who have found something but don't know what to do with that something.

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