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Thread: Back to Basics for Clue Three

  1. #1
    haf
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    Default Back to Basics for Clue Three

    I really just want to have the solve for clue three... so I will share my work to date.

    I am fairly certain this is a combination type puzzle. Looking at the distribution of the letters in the 10 x 10 grid they seem to follow a fairly normal frequency pattern (actually fairly close to a scrabble board in many ways). This suggests that this uses perhaps some form of a transposition cipher.

    The word "adventurer" I feel is the key word for the grid. There is a process in cryptography where you use a keyword to shift the order of a grid called columnar transposition. This process involves moving the columns according to the letters in a keyword, such as "adventurers". The best keyword would involve a word that had no repeating letters in it, so "adventurer" is not ideal (2 r and 2 e). However, there is a process to correct for this - simply order the letters by first come first serve. Here is how I ordered them - A (1) D(2) V(10) E(3) N (5) T ( U (9) R (6) E (4) R (7).

    Now we need to rearrange the grid. Simply print out the grid and cut out rows and columns (2 printouts). Arrange the original rows and columns according to the new order (1,2,10,3,5,8,9,6,4,7). This is supposed to then allow you to read the text withing the grid using a variety of techniques - row by row, column by column, spiral, counter clockwise....
    I got butkis for all of those.

    But he also gave us the flower petals... Number the newly ordered columns and rows 0-9 as we have done in the past and then pull out the letters using the classic polybius technique. Here is what I found (first set uses vertical then horizontal; second set uses horizontal then vertical; start in the left upper corner):

    Ordered Rows/
    EPAYGDTYQAIESSVGERIY

    STTETSLAQEMADENSENA

    Ordered Rows/ Left to Right and Top to Bottom Flower Order
    STTETASNLEASQNEDAME

    EMADENQSAELNSATETTS

    Ordered Coulmns/Clockwise Flower Order
    VRPRGNUEQGTELRNSTSE

    ATASELMOQHEENSTFENO

    Ordered Rows/ Left to Right and Top to Bottom Flower Order
    VRPRGENSTESQNRLETG

    ATASEOLNEOFQTSNEEH

    So...unfortunately I dont think any of these spells out anything meaningful. However, I may have the ordering and reading of the flowers not correct and that may make a difference. Rearranging the rows seems to give the most meaningful series of potential letters.

    I do think this puzzle works with clue four, as it has been previously graphed out to form 18 lined segments or 19 columns and rows. Well- we get a series of 19 letters here based upon the flowers. It may be a dot code - meaning you line up the letters we derive in clue three above the picture in even intervals and the flowers position read top to bottom will correspond with a letter that can be put together in a sequence.


    Just my two cents. I hope by sharing maybe I can get some feedback on this method.

    Haf
    Having fun while it lasts!

  2. #2
    benzleasr's Avatar
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    Default clue 3

    Haf, thanks for posting on Clue 3. It does take a lot of time to make a suggestion and then follow up on it. I like the fact that you offered a solution and backed it up with your efforts, even if it didn't bring anything at this point, you never know when it may spark someone else's idea to yield a solution.

    A couple other thoughts...what if you also numbered the colors 1-5 as suggested before. This would change the order of the grid, and/or try using the number of the leaves/petals as well.

    Lots of work left on this one...good luck.. benz
    Dreams really do come true!

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    cw0909 is offline Good Twelever Platinum cw0909 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default

    haf on your idea of columns was thinking place columns in order you
    find, using the leaf count, them left to right top row 5,3
    left side, 4,2 bottom, 1, then using the petal count, ie coords.
    i have not
    tried this because of lack of time, still trying to fix basement
    after flood. or maybe this will make a spark to soulution.
    nice to see #3 is still being worked on.

  4. #4
    haf
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    Default

    That is basically the process, although when I arrange the ROWS of the tables according to the order of the letters in ADVENTURER, this gives (in my opinion) a more meaningful letter set.

    I have also tried just looking at the yellow letter positions (1-9) as this is the only color to represented only once per flower (similar in some ways to the solve of the spider). I have done this with both the standard and the rearranged grid...No luck with either method.

    Having said all that--- I didn't find much with any of these methods, so maybe there is some sort of variation or tweaking to it. Or maybe it is wrong all together.

    I re-read a post by Spriggin from way back that also thought the clue was based upon two solves. Spriggin felt it was the now familiar word solve similar to boggle for the first message and then the flowers spelled out a set of letters that no one could make out...

    I am intrigued that puzzle three gives 19 letters (using flower coordinates)and there are 18 flowers (but a possible 19 columns) for clue 4 if a grid is developed - I still think that clue three may play a role in solving clue four.

    So when do we cry uncle and MS lets us know he solution??? Or is this one that goes with him to his grave?

    Sorry to hear bout the cleanup--- hope things get better.
    Having fun while it lasts!

  5. #5
    cw0909 is offline Good Twelever Platinum cw0909 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default

    maybe its rearange the rows and just use 2 colors as coords
    what gets me in over a year no one has found a key in #3 to
    lead the way we have to be making it to complicated but the real simple
    does not work sooooooo burned out.

  6. #6
    benzleasr's Avatar
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    Default clue 3

    ditto....
    ditto....
    ditto....

    That was 3 ditto's CW.......
    Dreams really do come true!

  7. #7
    cw0909 is offline Good Twelever Platinum cw0909 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default

    benzleasr
    guess 3 may not be known till 12-31-07 looks like
    frying like an egg on hot rock
    whoops burned it

  8. #8
    benzleasr's Avatar
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    Default clue 3

    The thing that bugs me most about Clue 3 is I know when all is said and done, I will just be hitting myself in the forehead and saying, "Ohhhhh."
    I'm dreading that moment of submission and the agony of defeat.
    I can say though that I went down fighting. LOL
    Dreams really do come true!

  9. #9
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    I find it interesting that the frequency analysis of the 10x10 grid letters gives a very close match to English. This suggests a pure transposition cipher, regardless if the flowers relate to it or not. Even after removing the word ADVENTURER, the remaining 90 letters have a very good match to English.

    To me, this suggests all 100 letters in the grid occur in the solution one time and one time only. If this reasoning is correct, some schemes can be discounted.

    -Rusty

  10. #10
    cw0909 is offline Good Twelever Platinum cw0909 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    hello have been thinking on the two 1-5 count on the petals
    i think the 1-5 are markers,starting at the 1-5 on left side.
    and going to the 1-5 to the right side, maybe should use the
    odd # count or maybe just prime #s. so this would be from
    left too bottom too right sides counter clock. then on the top
    start at the 0-2 and go down right side to 2-7 clockwise and
    use same, or some othe combo odd even, prime not prime, ect.
    thinking this would unscrabble letters,so less poss of anagrams.
    i tried left an bottom ccw. using the coords as they are and
    got a u e s n e t a a c e q, anagrams to ana quest cee.
    would do the other poss, just no time maybe everyone take a
    poss and see what you come up with lol


    benz if this is the way i think you can do it

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