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Thread: The Anagrams of Clue 3

  1. #21
    Doc
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    Questions about the nature of anagram puzzles have made me go back and do some thinking.

    Out of curiosity, I went to an online anagram generator and plugged in the first anagram puzzle HINT: TACKLE REPOSITORYS.

    It returned 47260 anagrams, and that was without the term 'Pook' from our game.

    In spite of that sheer number, the clue was solved within two hours.

    There's some sort of intuitive component that appears to be an integral part of an anagram solution. We 'know' that CRYSTAL POOK IS THIRTEEN is correct whereas A HELICOPTOR STINK STORY is definitely not.

    I'm trying to figure it out myself, but I think this intuitive response is one of the reasons I think the anagrams might be correct.

    When you get an anagram that states 'ML MESSAGE' REVEALS ANA TOKEN'S QUEST and you arrive at the next set of letters and find, quite literally 'ML MESSAGE' standing out in the block of letters, I get that intuitive feel that it might be correct.

    Same thing with the bit about GO EAST and SEE-L-X-EYE finding a string of directions in a straight line within the targeted block of letters that had a 'C' and 'I' that requires that they be spelled out as 'SEE' and 'EYE' to complete the sequence--it has an intuitive 'ding' to it.

    I'm going to take my time and work through these again to see if rearranging any of the words or letters might help it flow any differently.

    Doc

  2. #22
    Beeblebrox is offline Junior Twelever Copper Beeblebrox is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Beeblebrox,

    I've had some time to chew on your analysis, and I'd like to thank you again for making me stop and think. Reasoned, constructive criticism such as yours is always welcome because it moves me from my current position. I have to carefully consider what somebody else is thinking and decide if I really think I'm doing something right and move more towards actually going on a hunt or decide that this is going nowhere and change course.
    Hi Doc!

    First of all, let me say how absolutely refreshing it is to be able to offer a critique and have a wonderful, level-headed, non-emotional response to it. If there were more posters like you on the main Dar website, I'd be much more inclined to post there. Instead, people often become extremely defensive about their pet theories which is totally counterproductive. Your own posts are very well thought out, and, quite honestly, I like the way your brain works; that you can rationally discuss ideas (and criticism) is the hallmark of a scientific mind.

    I'm inferring that there are three main points you're having problems with:

    1. The letter frequencies in a large block of 20-30 letters allow Boggle-type solutions to be had.
    2. The original form of clue 3
    3. The block of 30 commonly-used letters allows for too many anagrams.
    Point #1 is really a separate subject (my own pet theory), so whether that idea is workable or not has no bearing on the correctness of your idea. I only mentioned it as an Occam's Razor aside -- that the simplest solution is likely to be the correct one, and that alternate mechanisms to anagramming produce interesting possibilities. But that's a subject for a separate post.

    Point #2 is the most bothersome to me. It's not like the alternate layout was a pre-production "sketch" -- it was production quality. Why MS swapped it out after publicly releasing it and replaced it with the present Clue 3, I don't know. But the fact that there were two versions is intringuing because it allows you to focus on the elements that did NOT change between versions.

    Point #3 was a commentary on the geometric growth of permutations with increasing letters in an anagram -- especially when rare letters are missing.

    BUT,

    Mr. Stadther has already introduced us to the concept via the Rusful solution. That particular puzzle had us collect 24 letters and turn them into a horridly tortured anagram that is far worse than anything I've seen with the anagrams of clue 3.
    I will have to revisit the Rusful solution if a 24-letter anagram was actually necessary to solve it. (I've spent far less time on ATT than on Dar, since the first I heard of either book was in March of this year.) I find it hard to believe that Stadther intended a straight anagram solution to such a long letter sequence. Is it possible that he hid de-scrambling instructions somewhere?

    I have no idea about any sort of 'original' version of clue 3. I'm a little cautious about accepting or rejecting ideas based on an unfinished version of a puzzle. I'd love to see the clue as well as know the circumstances that you happened by it if you wish to share that information.
    I actually found it a couple months ago through links on this website. It may take some time to relocate the direct link, but do a little poking around in the archives here and you should be able to find discussion of the earlier version of Clue #3. I'll look myself, and if I find it will post the link in a subsequent message. If I can't find it, I'll be happy to e-mail you the JPEG that I've got.

    Cheers,
    Beeblebrox

  3. #23
    Beeblebrox is offline Junior Twelever Copper Beeblebrox is on a distinguished road
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    Default Pre-release version of Clue #3

    Hi again, Doc. I can't believe it took me over an hour to find it, but here's the original message with the link to the pre-release version of Clue #3:

    http://www.tweleve.org/showpost.php?...7&postcount=25

    Here are some quotes taken from several posts on the subject:

    Quote #1:

    "Several people posted on June 1st-2nd that the image of the clue posted June 1st on the ATT site had changed a bit from those earlier posted images. E.g. Rik1138 mentioned on June 1st, "As for the lines making up all the squares, in the original posted graphic, they were all solid. Now the horizontals are broken." Adelos12 posted on June 2nd, "I saved three different images from ATT when the clue was posted. It changed at least three times. The flowers' arrangement change but were in the same order left to right clockwise. Also, the alpha's stayed the same, just stretched."

    Quote #2:

    "To clarify something I said...It was early in the a.m. on June 1st when TreasureTracker (not gemtracker--I said wrong name) posted the link to the earlier image. The link was at

    "www.atreasures.trove.com/images/database/320.jpg"

    (sorry, I'm not savvy enough yet to past links.) This was apparently some obsure area of the website that a few folks happened onto. This was hours before the clue was offically posted on the "New Clues" page (see the other posts around p.3 of the first Clue 3 thread.) TreasureTracker said, "People are assuming this image...is the clue. It hasn't been officially released yet." Then, several other links were posted, where people saw the clue before it was "officially" posted on the ATT "New Clues" page. Some people warned that this could be called hacking.

    Anyway, this is the image I must have seen with the squarish grid and lower case letters except for capitals on the left column. Rik1138 posted on the evening of June 1st (I think on p.12 or 13 of the Clue 3 thread) that the original image had all solid column/row lines and the columns were all the same width. Whereas the official clue posted had broken row lines, and the columns had uneven widths.

    Someone did mention somewhere before that the uneven columns and the uncentered letters in the boxes look like a rush job of cut and paste. I think he must have decided at the last minute to stretch the grid into a rectangle and put in all capitals."

    --Beeblebrox

  4. #24
    Elrohir's Avatar
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    Back in April and May I also was reviewing that original image, and it really struck me that the old format rather clearly indicates that we should use the flowers, starting from the upper left corner, and traveling clockwise around the box. I think the format was changed to mask that a bit.

    I then had some excellent ideas on how to use the flowers to shift the rows and columns, which also explained how and why "ADVENTURER" was there, as an artifact of the puzzle creation itself. Here is the thread where I discussed this with Spiggan and Perch and others.

    http://www.tweleve.org/showthread.ph...enturer&page=4

    I am still convinced that this is the most logical and elegant method for a decode of 100 letters that match our English frequency. Unfortunately I must be doing something wrong, or missing a step. But I got sidetracked and haven't spent any further time on it since May.

    Sorry Doc, but I agree with Beetlebrox-- this multi-step cryptic anagram piece is an utter dead end. It does not stand up to any tests of repeatability, and even if it was the solution, most people couldn't even follow it if it was explained step by step as you have described it. There are far too many interpretations, assumptions and leaps of faith. And these are all items that we have introduced, not Mr. Stadther.

    We only have a few months left. I wish everyone would just start fresh on Clue 3, and work it like the simple puzzle that it will ultimately prove to be.
    Redeemer of first ATT token: Dragonfly, May 22, 2005

  5. #25
    Beeblebrox is offline Junior Twelever Copper Beeblebrox is on a distinguished road
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    Default Boggle analysis

    Okay, I decided it was time to do a statistical analysis of the arrangement of the letters in Clue 3 as far as being able to create Boggle-like words (words whose letters are connected in order). My computer analysis is based on a 100,000+ word dictionary, and I limited the search to words of four letters or longer, up to nine letters (my arbitrary cutoff). You can choose to run the analysis with or without wrap-around permitted (e.g. going from row 3 column 10 to row 2 column 1 is allowed when wrap-around is set.) Obviously you can form many more words if wrap-around is allowed.

    In any case, what I wanted to ultimately determine is whether the letter arrangement that Stadther chose was in some way special -- for instance, more prone to forming words than would be a random reshuffling of the letters. My gut instinct told me that the letter arrangement was particularly favorable to forming longer words.

    Well, computers don't lie, and my gut instinct was quite wrong. I was also dismayed by how many long words the computer found that I missed! Here are the stats on 500 random scrambles of the 10x10:

    Letters: # of words [mean, standard deviation]
    ------- -------------------------------------
    4: 438.0 , 52.3
    5: 422.3, 72.3
    6: 331.6, 74.5
    7: 207.1, 58.2
    8: 105.7, 38.0
    9: 39.6, 17.9

    How did the unscrambled grid do by comparison? Here are the raw
    counts with the number of standard deviations above (or below) the
    mean in parentheses:

    4: 482 (+0.84)
    5: 442 (+0.27)
    6: 339 (+0.10)
    7: 207 (+0.00)
    8: 95 (-0.2
    9: 29 (-0.59)

    Statistically, the Clue 3 letter arrangement is no better at word-forming than the typical random arrangement of the same letters.

    In case anyone is curious, here are the 9-letter words that my program found:

    ADVENTURE
    ARKANSANS
    ASININITY
    BLUSTERER
    BREWERIES
    CESAREANS
    DETESTERS
    ENSNARERS
    FATHEADED
    GAMESTERS
    HARVESTER
    INANITIES
    INSURRECT
    KATAKANAS
    NAMESAKES
    NONOWNERS
    PESTERERS
    REASSURES
    REFERRERS
    REINSURES
    RESURRECT
    REVERSERS
    SEAMSTERS
    SEMESTERS
    TERNARIES
    URINARIES
    VENETIANS
    WARRENERS
    WINNOWERS

    I find it amusing that fatheaded and gamesters are among the 9-letter words. Michael sure knows how to kick us when we're down.

    --Beeblebrox

  6. #26
    Beeblebrox is offline Junior Twelever Copper Beeblebrox is on a distinguished road
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    Default Boggle analysis - update

    A small correction to my last post -- I forgot that in Boggle you aren't permitted to use the same cube twice in one word (i.e. no doubling back). Just in case that made a difference, I went ahead and coded that variant, and while I was at it extended the word length cutoff to 10 letters. The word counts go down, of course, but the overall message is the same: there is nothing "Boggle-wise" special about Clue 3:

    Statistics on 500 random scrambles (mean # of words, std. deviation):

    4 letters: 375.0, 46.2
    5 letters: 313.0, 58.0
    6 letters: 195.7, 50.6
    7: 97.7, 33.1
    8: 37.7, 16.8
    9: 10.9, 6.5
    10: 2.2, 2.2

    # of words for Clue 3 grid [std. dev. above mean]:

    4 letters: 401 [+0.56]
    5 letters: 307 [-0.10]
    6: 180 [-0.31]
    7: 81 [-0.50]
    8: 35 [-0.16]
    9: 9 [-0.29]
    10: 4 [+0.82]

    The four 10-letter words are: adventurer (no surprise!), dinnerware, harvesters, and resurrects. --Beeblebrox

  7. #27
    grimey101 is offline Junior Twelever Copper grimey101 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Beeblebrox,

    The largest anagram I've seen in this book is 33 letters. On p19 you see the III II II in the leaf. Someone posted if you take the third letter, then the second after it, second after it again, and repeat with the sequence through the bottom text about Zac and Pook, you get about 33 letters.

    Anagram those letters you get 'Show leaf key in a child stargaze melody'. I never would have come up with that, nor thought that MS would attempt such a nasty trick , but he did. Anything is possible.

    I still do not understand why he would have the Rusful token be found purely through a released web clue, and not be able to be found through just the book alone. If there are more tokens, and he is not releasing more web clues to assist, it does not seem fair to those still searching.

    Good luck and keep searching...

  8. #28
    katiek is offline Junior Twelever Copper katiek is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post

    I'm trying to figure it out myself, but I think this intuitive response is one of the reasons I think the anagrams might be correct.

    When you get an anagram that states 'ML MESSAGE' REVEALS ANA TOKEN'S QUEST and you arrive at the next set of letters and find, quite literally 'ML MESSAGE' standing out in the block of letters, I get that intuitive feel that it might be correct.

    Same thing with the bit about GO EAST and SEE-L-X-EYE finding a string of directions in a straight line within the targeted block of letters that had a 'C' and 'I' that requires that they be spelled out as 'SEE' and 'EYE' to complete the sequence--it has an intuitive 'ding' to it.

    I'm going to take my time and work through these again to see if rearranging any of the words or letters might help it flow any differently.

    Doc
    GO EAST and SEE-L-X-EYE = when you stand in front of the statue and go east you will see Zac's left eye X -out (blind in left eye). Your intuitive sense is telling you the true solution, not the distractive solutions.
    Real puzzle is the "dreamer one on ending" - Lennon

  9. #29
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    Elrohir, I am in agreement with you, mostly. We have only a few months remaining to figure out the final puzzles for ATT. What I find compelling about Doc's solution is/are his final 12 unused letters. It is very strange that they would anagram into 'answer: align C' and virtually nothing else. But I have to agree with you that a small error in the initial steps will compound into large error as the steps progress, and I don't like the number of steps. It seems too large to me. I can only comment on the conclusion, which, paradoxically, seems rationally derived. "Answer: Align C" looks correct to me.

    It looks correct because from Clue 2 I can get 'note E in Earth' very easily, and can defend the derivation process. I invite anyone to challenge it. The letter E in 'Earth' on page 16 has some special attributes. The similarity in brevity, language, etc. of this clue gives me reason to consider Doc's solution seriously.

    With that in mind, I've tried all kinds of ways to reinterpret 'Answer: Align C', but nothing has worked so far. It may be a will o' the wisp, but I hope we see more (many more) offered up before December 31.

    I think online Clues two, three, and four reveal hints/directions to a secondary tier of puzzles. We are woefully behind if that is the case.

    There's something odd about MS' use of the letter C throughout the book. For Doc's solution to point directly to the letter C is beyond coincidence, in my opinion. Frankly, I don't care how he came up with it. Sometimes things just pop out, and defy rational explanation, post ad hoc-wise. Of course, we have to critique individual theories, just because we're human beings. Here's my guess:

    Doc's final solution (Answer: Align C) is a correct partial part to Clue 3. Chock it up to serendipity, chance, genious, whatever. There's something correct about it that can't be ignored.


    Perchprism

  10. #30
    bruinmd is offline Junior Twelever Copper bruinmd is on a distinguished road
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    Grimey: I think Rusful was a late addition to keep up interest.

    I believe he had Clues 3 and 4 in mind the entire time and they interact with the book. As Doc pointed out, we still have an unused pointing fairy on p. 78, so we still have something to find. The question is whether we will figure it out in time....

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