1. Getting the hang of it. Copper
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Mar 2005
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## Questions about Doc's coordinates system

To everyone--
My post is about Docâ€™s assumptions in translating the puzzles into letter grid coordinates. Let me first say the following: I agree with much of Docâ€™s premise, including that the five directions of the acorns and dandelion seeds, the five colors in the spider puzzle, the five types of dots in the snail puzzle, etc. relate in some way to navigating a 5X5 letter grid (apparently with the Q missing). I am a bit more skeptical that the letters found elsewhere on the page must necessarily indicate the starting letter through which to base each grid (none of my tests using those permutations have been fruitful), but as with many other things, I have no better solution to posit. I also acknowledge that Doc has put a great deal of time into this assumptions and that there is every possibility that he knows other things--things which better unlock the puzzles--than he has let on or that I have been able to piece together. Lastly, it might be the case that I am using his conclusions incorrectly, or that the system of directions he is talking about is meant to be used in a different way than I am processing. My fault, not his.
But I question in general how the directional seeds or acorns can be used to produce names. If the grid progresses from A-Z without Q (letâ€™s assume this for now), regardless of where the alphabet starts within each particular grid, the act of following the seeds northeast, then northwest, then southeast, then southeast, etc. could only produce a word or series of words whose letters were all immediately adjacent to one another by diagonal (i. e. if a bishop on a chess board could only move one space at a time). It sounds almost impossibly hard to spell out even one place name by this method, since half of the grid would be unavailable for use (a bishop who moves on black squares can never move on red ones), and the assumption that the alphabet must move in order throughout the grid makes the likelihood of encoding a place name even more remote. And one of the general strains of logic is that MS has done this 12 times with 12 different grids. I donâ€™t see how for even a master puzzler this is possible.
So I ask Doc and anyone who reads this post: If we are using the directions of the acorns and seeds and notches in the butterfly puzzle to navigate a grid, do you think that it leads to a string of letters which then must be cyphered? Anagrammed? To me, it seems like there are endless possibilities in trying to decode a 17 or 20 letter place name with multiple codes placed upon it. So as of now I am stuck. I think Iâ€™ve identified what to do in most of the puzzles, but I cannot make that step from identifying â€˜fivesâ€™ to deciphering meaningful coordinates.
--Milltycoon

2. A beautifully written post, MillTycoon. Something tells me that someone with your organizational thinking and writing skills may provide the breakthoughs we need here. Welcome to the site!

calvin

3. Expert Twelever TwelevePlus
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Greetings from a spectacular spring morning in the Bayou State!

Mill,

You have hit upon the exact problem that a former poster, 12pm, and destructo had with the entire theory. And, they're a lot smarter than I am with math and cryptography, and I don't disagree with them in the least.

Deriving letters in this manner does NOT produce a name. And, at this juncture, it is NOT producing a cipher. But, I DO think it's on the right track. I'll try to explain.

I assure you I haven't been holding anything back.

Do you have any idea how disappointed I was the first time I maneuvered through a grid and got nothing but gibberish?

There are several points that let me think this isn't going to immediately produce the name of a park we're so desparately looking for:

1. A code of numbers isn't involved in deriving this string of letters. I'm a big believer in the poem, and this problem is a biggie. The poem specifies that the 'even code' gives the name of the sanctuary, and the 'code of numbers' reveals the same thing. (I believe the 'sanctuary' and 'the place where the treasures abide' is the same thing--not a big stretch.) To me, this means that either he has two different ways of reaching the same destination, or both are necessary to derive the correct name. I think it's the latter.

2. If you apply this directional method to the 5 x 5 grid of letters, this would mean that each hole for the butterfly puzzle, dandelion seed for the ant puzzle, acorn for the firefly puzzle, etc. is replaced by a single letter.

Count the number of letters for each puzzle.

An Austrian composer told Mozart that his compositions had 'too many notes'. For Mr. Stadther's composition, there's 'too many letters'.

There's no way he needs that many letters to form the name of a park if this single step is supposed to produce a name either in plaintext, anagram, or simple substitution code. This is a big reason I think the 'code of numbers' bit has to be used in tandem with this step to produce anything.

Mill, the sequencing mechanism for each treasure can be used TWICE, but in completely different ways. Once seen, it was one of those things that made me slap my forehead. Look under the 'Firefly' and 'Snail' topics below to see what I'm referring to.

Also, the dropcap letter associated with each puzzle does NOT necessarily have to start the letter string for each treasure because they definitely do NOT all use compass directions in the same fashion. Which brought up a Really Interesting Question for me.....why must a treasure be associated with a certain letter?

Still puzzling....

Doc

4. Junior Twelever Copper
Join Date
Feb 2005
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Doc, I admire your diligence and patience in staying with a concept till it's end. I tend to have less patience when I don't see results immediately.
That said, I have noticed a few differences between peoples' methods and the poem.

Let's break down the line from the riddle starting with, "A code of numbers five to a side..." Instead of (or along with) just a code of numbers, most have made a code (or codes) of LETTERS 5 to a side. I don't believe that's necessary. The poem doesn't mention letters (except that they would be necessary to reveal a name).

"...reveals the name where the treasures abide." Notice that "name" is singular. That's right, I believe there is only one code of numbers and one name in the whole book. It shows the specific object all of the treasures are hidden on or in, such as flower pot, picnic table, etc. This is also why MS would choose the word "name" over "place" or "location".

But aren't they supposed to be in knot holes? As I have, most of you have probably checked some knotholes. I'm sure none of the ones I have checked would be a decent hiding place for longer than three years. Since is took MS several years to find good hiding places, I'm sure he came up with better places than knotholes. I would pose that "Find the trees hole" refers to a tree in the book in some way although I can only speculate on that at this point.

Finally, I believe pooklover has found THE code of numbers. If you have not already, check out a different way to fill the box. It is actually a code with numbers that is book-wide and creates a pattern (confirmer) that shows it is the correct code. The numbers should need to be cryptoquoted, added, shifted or something else to come up with the name.

Please let me know if this makes any sense, or am I just completely off my rocker.

5. Junior Twelever Copper
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Could you explain the code of numbers pooklover found or direct me to the thread where it is explained?

6. Junior Twelever Copper
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Sure, just click on the link "a different way to fill the box" in my previous post.

7. Needs to say Hello!
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Could Doc or someone else in this thread direct me where to find info or the original post about this grid coordinate that Doc created? As you see from the previous posts, I had a different idea for the 5 x 5 box, and I wanted to see if Doc's idea fit with mine...

Thanks-
Pooklover

8. Originally Posted by pooklover
Could Doc or someone else in this thread direct me where to find info or the original post about this grid coordinate that Doc created?
Here you have a link to a post where Doc explains how they fill in each one of the grids:

http://tweleve.org/forum/viewtopic.p...ighlight=#9425

You may also want to just go to Doc's profile and click on "find all posts by Doc".

Hope this helps!

gabi

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## A slight deviation on Doc's thinking

Doc,

I've read all your posts very carefully over the last several weeks. There's no question in my mind that your methods are on the correct track. Here are a few suggestions that might help. First, I believe you are correctly filling in the 5 X 5 grid with the letters. Second, I believe your method for moving directionally throughout the grid is correct. Clearly, the next step is where all is lost. I have a hunch that the actual letters that are filled into the grid are meaningless. I believe the letters are switched into numbers BEFORE the directions are used to move throughout the grid. In this manner, only a code of numbers is derived not a code of letters. In looking carefully at the book, I believe the author used letters first to fill the grid because the clues were easier to hide rather than numbers. Then as soon as the grid is filled with letters, it is immediately switched to numbers. Each treasure would still have a different number grid because the letters all fill in differently.
Then after these numbers are derived using Doc's directional method, then what do you do? I have some guesses. Doc, you've said that too many points are created to create a "sanctuary name." What if only half actually became a letter spelling out the sanctuary. One would take this code of numbers and pair them. (this might be considered an even code) One of the numbers would take you to a chapter or page number. Then the second number would be used to count out letters to arrive out a particular letter. A Beale like cipher using the "text as the key." Only half the coordinates would be used, it's an even like code, and one would be using the text as the key. I want to make it clear I haven't had a chance to try any of this. I'm in the middle of a big job search and haven't had the necessary time to try any of this. I hope some of this can help Doc or anyone else. Thanks. Doug

10. Expert Twelever TwelevePlus
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Douglas,

I've been thinking about your post since yesterday, and I wanted to thank you for making me stop and think. Several points:

The sequencing mechanism for each treasure has a secondary quality that I don't think is random: Each mechanism is somehow associated with the outline of a 5 x 5 grid. It might be the rectangular page, or the block around a dropcap, or the frame of a picture, etc. I could certainly be off-base, but I'm inferring that each sequence can be used twice. At this point, I'm using it once for letters and a second time for numbers.

The sheer quantity of letters obtained makes me think it can't be the name of the sanctuary, as you pointed out. The quantity of numbers obtained is MUCH more in line with the name of a park, in my opinion.

That certainly doesn't preclude some letter-to-number switch prior to using the sequencing mechanism the first time.

Try identifying the similar clue types for each treasure. I found it illuminating. For instance, many of the treasures are associated with the fairy pointing at a black line--what I'm referring to as my 'map fragment' for each puzzle. However, not all the treasures have a similar clue. How does the author convey the necessary information for a map fragment for the treasures which do NOT have the fairy/black line combination? I think he made himself stay within the confines of the instructions of the poem for each treasure, so 'fairies have to show us the way'.

The more interesting clue type is attempting to identify the single letter associated with each treasure.

At first (and I've not completely ruled it out) is that the hidden animal associated with a drop cap is meant to be associated with that particular word rather than the letter--the grasshopper on the 'Y' with 'Yorah', for instance.

What a nice, logical way to provide us with a keyword if we're to actually need one.

However, once again, not all the treasures are hidden picture puzzles associated with a letter. How does the author convey the necessary information for this letter and/or word for the treasures which do NOT have a hidden picture puzzle in a drop cap?

Let me know what you think.

Doc

PS--The Pook treasure will be governed by the poem as well, in my opinion--meaning that the same sorts of clues will be present for Pook as the others for the poem to act upon.