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Thread: Forum Progress on Box

  1. #21
    lindenmi's Avatar
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    Default where to go now?

    We all seem to be on the same endless what next track.

  2. #22
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    perchprism is offline Good Twelever Gold perchprism is on a distinguished road
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    Default How to Fill the Jewel Box/code of numbers

    I want to share how I've been filling the 5x5 matrix.

    First, I use a 13 letter Key word, such as Pickensrooter, for example, for the Hummingbird:

    = = P = =
    = I= C= K =
    E=N=S=R=O
    =O= T= E =
    = = R= =


    Then, I'll fill in the 12 blank spaces around it with something obvious, like OLYMPIC MODEL, or the first part of Ye Nomenclature, something like that, whatever it is I'm working on at that time.

    y-e-P-n-o
    m-I-C-K-e
    E- N-S-R-O
    n-O-T-E-c <---- more on this in a second
    l-a-R-t-u

    Notice on page 41 that the design on the Argyle sock is a diamond grid, or rather, it's a depiction of a 13 -letter root word with a C off to the right.

    When I filled this in, I get the message, NOTE C. The Kooten's fingers are morse-coding the letter C with the holes on the button, and both of the Picken's feet are pointing off to the letter C in the vine. So I suspect that this puzzle is a musical sort of puzzle, where I need to pick out the letters in a C chord, for example. Www.chordfind.com is a good place to start.

    Finding the root key word for the sanctuary was a process. I started with a 5x5, and used the poem to cut it down to size. I finally had a 4x4 (16 letters with one dangling J), similar to the diamond you can see in the salt specks on the container on page 41. There were a couple more steps to get it down to 13. I'm not ready to explain those steps, but I will tell you about the code of numbers.

    The 12 first letters of the Dream Poem: MLMLDOO E IC YP.

    The first letters are Roman numerals, and the two O's are zero's. It comes to 17. The last O is for the word ON (dreamer one ON ending). I needed 16. The poem says, "...an even code with ON piece nary", so I left off the last 0, and have 16 numbers:

    1000
    50
    1000
    50
    500
    0

    I put those around the outside, and quadrangulated to get a new letter value for each letter.

    There is also a clue on Chapter 13 that has to be used.


    The rest of the 12 letters E IC YP, are period (E), IC which is non-standard short hand for '99, and YP = the author. Believe me when I tell it's 'the author', and you'll be able to figure the Chapter 13 clue that leads to the sanctuary.

    I've been rotating the 13 letter root key word within the 5x5 matrix. I call this the jewel box. I chose PICKENSROOTER for the Hummingbird, because in the Chapter 7 text, the Pickensrooter is behaving like a hummingbird when Ana flips it out the open window and it hovers and bobs, as though on a string (another reference to a musical chord--string).

    The code of numbers for the Hummingbird puzzle is different. I needed 20 numbers for that (5 to a side). Anyway, I have some results, but it's still not quite right. One message: ' HUMV B XX YDS ON ROX'....MS apparently refers to the hummingbird as a HUMV.

    Tonight I'm posting an idea on the Ye Nomenclature page to possibly decode the Flower Faeries section of that book. Also, Renart will be disclosing the poem from the cover of the Ye Nomenclature book.

    Perchprism

  3. #23
    zinner is offline Needs to say Hello! zinner is an unknown quantity at this point
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    I know this may seem elementary and must be addressed somewhere else but I haven't seen it so I will offer it up anyway.

    If you take the "moonlike" poem it contains 17 different letters. If you look at the 5 X 5 colored grid that has certain squared blacked out, there are 17 spaces. any chance we should fill those spaces with the moonlike letters in the order they appear in the poem? I suppose you would then fill in the remaining black boxes with the remaining letter of the alphabet minus Q. I haven't spent any time using this grid to try and decode anything. We will see how it goes.
    Lisa

    "It's not easy being green"

  4. #24
    longtimefan is offline Junior Twelever Copper longtimefan is an unknown quantity at this point
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    That is a very goood idea!!!!!

  5. #25
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    Oh, Zinner, I really like that idea. Maybe this would solve that crazy pg. 66 dot puzzle, or the mushroom dots on pg. 100??? Could be good!!

  6. #26
    lecia1212 is offline Twelever Silver lecia1212 is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default

    I just think it is interesting that "each is outside for you to find" equals 25 letters.
    The things that come to those that wait may be the things left by those who got there first.

  7. #27
    wpglaeser is offline Junior Twelever +1 Bronze wpglaeser is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default way too hard

    i think you all are making this WAY too hard.

    MS keeps saying anybody that can read can solve this (that includes most 6 year olds).

    Also, he implies the answers are in the text.

    Lastly, he seems amazed nobody's found anything yet.

    Also, NONE of the clues hidden in the pictures point to a hiding place, even the poem. This includes both the new "clues" on his web site. They are ALL generalizations. Mike says the clues (in the text) will point to an EXACT location.

    I say ignore the distractions and concentrate on something simpler in the text (though hidden in plain sight)...

    walt

  8. #28
    moonglitter is offline Getting the hang of it. Copper moonglitter is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Hi all! My first post here...

    I agree with the theory that the 5x5 grid corresponds to the letters of the alphabet, minus Q. I actually came up with the idea on my own before looking at any of these forums, so now that I see that I'm not the only thinking it, I feel we may be on the right track.

    Taking it a step further, MS has said that the key is in the text. And since he intended this as a family activity, I'm a firm believer that he did not hide clues using all these crazy, complicated ciphers that people are trying to solve. I have a theory that he *did* put some of this stuff in the book, just for fun for those who like to solve those kinds of puzzles, but I don't think they will lead anyone to a token. I am taking a very simplistic approach to the solution, trying to think like a child, and focus on the obvious.

    That being said, I've just been searching the text for things that seemed unusual or overly-specific. The one thing that really jumps out at me is the detailed arrangements of the forest creatures that appear in several places in the book. (I'm at work without the book, so I can't cite page numbers right now, though.) There are several times when he lists the order in which they are travelling or gathering - the "delta" formation, snail rides on grasshopper's back, dragonfly hovers over ant, followed by bee, ladybug moves to the front, etc...

    What if the different arrangements of the creatures correspond to positions on the 5x5 grid, which would somehow give us the order of the letters in the boxes, and depending on which formation you use, you get the location of a different token?

    I haven't worked out all the details yet, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet, and it sure seems like it might be worth spending some time on, I think.....

    Happy Hunting,
    Paula

  9. #29
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    Hunnytree is offline Good Twelever Aquamarine Hunnytree is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default ORDER OF THE CREATURES - REVISITED

    Yes, Paula, I began to post my interest in the Order of the Creatures around the end of March, and the first week in April. Please feel free to check out the links and any follow up there might have been.

    I am just delighted that it is coming to the fore again, and that someone thinks it might be significant. Certainly, at the time, I was only impacted by the FACTS...and had no idea what to DO with those facts.

    http://tweleve.org/forum/viewtopic.p...reatures#13891

    Posted March 29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunnytree
    The "Order" of the Forest Creatures I think of as, not the order in which they are mentioned, but the order in which they flew in pursuit of Zac as established on pg. 34. The text is a tad tricky here, leaving mention of the Ladybug to the last, when actually the Ladybug is first in the "flight pattern".

    Here is the order as I think of it.

    1. Ladybug
    2. Ant
    3. Butterfly
    4. Bee
    5. Snail
    6. Spider
    7. Dragonfly
    8. Beetle
    9. Firefly
    10. Caterpillar
    11. Grasshopper
    12. Hummingbird

    Unfortunately, there are indeed several different ways to think of the "order" of the forest creatures....as someone recently put it, any idea is a contender until someone actually finds a token.
    I would like to add to the previous post this thought :

    I take the "Order" of the Forest Creatures as they appear in their "flight pattern" in the IMAGE on pg. 34,,,,,not as they appear in the text. That same IMAGE is repeated in reverse at the end of the book.
    http://tweleve.org/forum/viewtopic.p...reatures#15379

    Posted April 8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunnytree
    Disclaimer: If you think by reading this post you will find a token, or see some answers, don't read it. The best this post can do is raise more questions.

    Lately I have been thinking long and hard about the "order of the creatures" throughout the book, within the text, and how it changes, and why, and what might that have to do with "filling the box" and the couplet "Within the text you have the key, For the one that is missing you do not see."

    Written differently this line of the poem could read...

    "You have the key for the one you do not see, that is missing within the text."

    My thoughts are only so far down the road on this one. Let's see if anyone can "see" further down the road on it.

    Recently I posted a pic of a "flight formation delta" on the forum...and debz wrote me a note.
    "Nice Delta formation... now, do you have the creatures laid out in it? I think what confuses me is If Ladybug leads, then where is dragonfly. Or does ladybug lead on mirror image?
    Also, do they use the Delta formation when they are carrying caterpillar?"
    I responded:

    "That was a good question, Debz. Sent me right back to the book to query.”

    First of all, there is more than one flight. But before there were any flights, there was an ordering of the creatures.

    The first order is identified in the Prologue, pg 14.

    This order identifies the Ground Forces and the Air Group.

    The first six creatures – later identified as Spider’s Ground Forces - we find waiting “in the hole under the distant linden stump.” We also discover at this time that Spider and Beetle are known as protectors of the other creatures within. They are in this order:

    1. Spider – ground
    2. Beetle - ground
    3. Caterpillar - ground
    4. Ant - ground
    5. Grasshopper - ground
    6. Snail – ground (who we determine is male, and the husband of Snail, his wife, who crawls toward the hole. She can “see” Spider and Beetle, and she “knows” the rest of the ground creatures are huddled behind these two creatures.)

    Now we are introduced to the creatures who will later make up the Air Force, and hear they will “soon be flying in.”

    7. Dragonfly – air
    8. Hummingbird – air
    9. Butterfly – air
    10. Firefly – air
    11. Bee – air
    12. Ladybug – air

    In Chapter 3, pg 22, we find that Dragonfly, a male creature, is the Air Group leader, and apparently he flies “high-altitude reconnaissance” in “this part of the Forest.” He reports to Spider, however, who is identified in Chapter 3 as the Ground Leader.

    In Chapter 4, The Forest Creatures, we find it is indeed, “Spider’s army.”

    I notice the two “Leaders” seem to have different agendas. Dragonfly’s agenda certainly seems to be more community-oriented, while Spider’s agenda, while ultimately is for the good of the community, has more of a personal twist to it. They have a conversation in which Dragonfly objects to Spider’s less strategic agenda. Also, I note, when Dragonfly addresses Spider,

    “Spider!”

    - it is the first time, the first word used in the book by one Forest Creature speaking to another.

    Funny how Dragonfly believes in Spider, and that “she”, will “devise a cunning plan to eliminate (the) human intruder” only to turn around and object to Spider’s simple, rather self-serving plan. (this word – “cunning” is used to describe Spider twice in the book)

    “Tie him up.”
    “Hang him up.”
    “Eat him up.”

    Then, when Dragonfly objects, Spider refines her instructions.

    “Analyze, attack, then devour.”

    Dragonfly continues with persistent objections, and suggests instead a “combined attack”. At this time Dragonfly is rather prolific with her retort to Spider’s one-track thinking. Matter of fact, we find in Chapter 4 that Dragonfly is an “orator”. Also, Dragonfly calls the flying creatures “the Air Force”, and calls Spider’s troops “the Ground Forces.”

    In Chapter 4 – pg. 25 - Spider organizes the Forest Creatures with “great precision” and assembles her army at the linden stump.

    (This statement is WHY I began to look very carefully at the ORDERING OF THE CREATURES throughout the book. Its significance is noted within the text and is right before our eyes.)

    1. Spider – Army leader - ground
    2. Snail – ground - rides atop-
    3. Grasshopper – ground - to provide “low level advance reconnaissance”
    4. Beetle – ground – covers the flanks with-
    5. Ant – ground
    6. Caterpillar – ground - rear guard
    7. Dragonfly – air - hovering, is already there,
    8. Bee – air - and the rest hover behind him
    9. Butterfly - air
    10. Ladybug - air
    11. Firefly - air
    12. Hummingbird - air

    Dragonfly speaks to the group and outlines the strategy.

    Their mission as Dragonfly defines it, is to conduct aerial surveil-lance (one of those hyphenated words in the text) of the human.

    Note, in this passage, we see now the THIRD name given to the flying creatures. Dragonfly now says he will “lead the Air Corps”.

    In order, the names given to the Air support are:

    Air Group
    Air Force
    Air Corps

    He even says "flight formation delta" which is obviously a six-plane formation. Although we previously heard the flying creatures identified in the Prologue, there are seven forest creatures who can fly and seven creatures who DO fly if we view the IMAGE on pg. 34. Beetle is likely not originally included in Dragonfly’s “flight formation delta” as he is the least suited to flying as a rule. He usually crawls, is considered part of Spider’s Ground Forces, but apparently can fly short distances if called upon.

    See Debz post 3/26:
    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...73/Beetle.html

    Characteristics of Beetles

    Coleoptera, the scientific name of the beetle order, comes from the Greek words coleos (“sheath”) and pteron (“wing”). The term refers to the characteristic feature of beetles—hardened front wings that form a protective sheath over the hind pair of flying wings. While most beetles can fly, many are clumsy fliers, and some have lost the ability to fly and live primarily on the ground.
    The reconnaissance takes place with six creatures in the air, and six creatures on the ground for a simultaneous observation of the “human”.

    After Dragonfly's Air Corps and Spider’s Ground Forces reconnaissance - the forest creatures reconvene at the linden stump, where Ladybug challenges the 'group' to rethink how they view Zac as a danger to the forest and to themselves.

    No vote is taken, but apparently because Ladybug demonstrates wisdom and the ability to form a team, acknowledging the strengths of the others, she becomes the “new ‘group’ leader”.

    Then they mount a second flight. This one is to go straight to Zac, to his workshop, to ask for his help, as a whole group. And the whole group agreed, just like Ladybug said they needed to before such an undertaking.

    There are TWO orderings of the creatures here. Textually stated, linear fashion, the order is:

    1. Ladybug - air
    2. Grasshopper - ground
    3. Hummingbird - air
    4. Ant – ground
    5. Butterfly – air
    6. Bee – air
    7. Snail – ground
    8. Spider – ground
    9. Dragonfly – air
    10. Firefly - air
    11. Beetle – ground/air
    12. Caterpillar – ground

    In the IMAGE, however, the order is illustrated thusly: [Note there is a difference between which creature is RIDING atop, and which creature is on top in the illustration because that creature CARRIES another creature.]

    1. Ladybug – air -leads the way
    2. Ant – ground - rides atop
    3. Butterfly - air
    4. Bee – air - carries
    5. Snail - ground
    6. Spider –ground - atop
    7. Dragonfly - air
    8. Beetle – air/ground - and
    9. Firefly – air - carry
    10. Caterpillar - ground
    11. Grasshopper – ground - atop
    12. Hummingbird - air

    Two missions.
    The first – to identify what the presence of the human could mean; the second, to elicit the help of the “good human”, Zac, to hopefully rid the forest of the evil human, Rusful.

    Two separate flights.
    The first – a reconnaissance; the second – an embassy seeking help.

    There are a number of separate complete and some incomplete lists that order the creatures within the text, and within the images in the story. I haven’t pulled them all together, but this post covers the ones I have so far. This strikes me as an important fact and possibly holds a clue.

    Partial groups appear at times also, for example when the creatures assemble on the branch to visit Zac - pg 49. They are called “the embassy” in this passage, led by Ladybug who tries to speak to Zac.

    Take Chapter 16 – pg 73. The Forest Creatures are sleeping in Yorah’s branches, and “begin to awaken” and almost panic when they see the “Darkling cloud on the horizon.”

    1. Hummingbird awakens first – “keen-eyed, but speechless”
    2. Ladybug, the Group Leader, is awakened by Hummingbird, and is drowsy
    3. Dragonfly now awakens, and “instantly assume(s) his Air Group Leader role” shouting “Condition Red! Battle stations!”

    However, they don’t panic because: “Ladybug took command.”

    Another partial group appears at the end of the story, Chapter 20, The Great Forest, on pg. 98, as the creatures awake from their sleep in Yorah’s green leaves.

    1. Caterpillar
    2. Beetle
    3. Firefly
    4. Spider
    5. Snail
    6. Ladybug
    7. Ant
    8. Hummingbird
    9. Bee
    10. Dragonfly
    11. Ladybug

    Butterfly is NOT mentioned.

    Zac now notices the Forest creature he considers his “new friend”, Ladybug as he lay in his bed staring up into Yorah’s leaves.

    Then the creatures fly “in through the window” and “up into the branches”. Textually they are written in this order:

    1. Ladybug – already seen [with her mate]
    2. Firefly – and
    3. Beetle – carrying
    4. Caterpillar
    5. Bee – carrying
    6. Snail
    7. Dragonfly – with
    8. Spider – atop her back
    9. ? the Beetle Errata ?
    10. Grasshopper – atop
    11. a “glittering” Hummingbird

    So, WHAT happened HERE? We ONLY KNOW that Beetle is mentioned TWICE. IN ERROR. We know that BUTTERFLY is NOT mentioned in the list of creatures waking from their sleep in the leaves of Yorah here at the near end of the story. And ANT is missing from the second list of now only ELEVEN creatures.

    Today I looked at the ATT website and noticed a BIG change in the Errata comments.

    1. P. 98 - second to last paragraph 4th sentence should read: fly with a spider on her back and finally
    That means BOTH BUTTERFLY AND ANT are missing from this list “within the text”. WHY?

    Well, so be it. The next sentence does say that “Zac and Ana watched them ALL rejoin their mates in Yorah’s branches.”

    NEVERTHELESS, even so, the Butterfly is NOT mentioned anywhere in Chapter 20. The Ant IS mentioned as one of the creatures who wakes up in Yorah’s leaves – pg. 96. But BUTTERFLY is not to be found.

    Butterfly IS found in the image on pg. 101.

    leceia posted recently how she noticed the differences in the order that the 'jewels' are presented within the story and on the ATT site. This dovetailed right into what debz and I have been looking at too. I keep thinking about how the box gets filled, and that Zac realizes how to fill it.

    Could it be about the order of the creatures themselves.

    And could the one that is missing at the end of the story, not seen in Yorah’s leaves pg 96, or that doesn't fly in the window with the others - the BUTTERFLY– be significant? The key is within the text, MS told us, for the one that is missing that you do not see. The key is not in the images. About he cube we saw -- didn't someone say one piece always remains in the center?

    This whole ordering of the creatures ? I’m just throwin' this out here. It’s probably my forte to be more of a journalist, to do the research, to be an observer. I can’t always decipher what in the world it means. BUT, if I think it is significant, I bloody well can at least report it.

    My thanks to Debz and Huge Scarab for all their help and input.

    Regards,
    Hunnytree
    _________________

    http://tweleve.org/forum/viewtopic.p...reatures#15394

    Posted April 8 - Hunnytree's Errata
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunnytree
    Correcting my mistakes.

    Uhhhhhh...the list for pg. 96 and 97 - the one about the order of the creatures sleeping and awaking on the leaves of Yorah before they fly in the window.....

    should have read as follows: (this is the order in their textual appearance)

    1. Caterpillar
    2. Beetle
    3. Firefly
    4. Spider
    5. Snail
    6. Ladybug
    7. Ant
    8. Hummingbird
    9. Bee
    10. Dragonfly

    Actually, only TEN creatures are mentioned here.

    There is no mention of BUTTERFLY OR GRASSHOPPER in the leaves of Yorah in their sleeping/waking phase.

    Grasshopper is mentioned in the next listing when they are flying in the window.
    Ant is not.
    Butterfly is not.

    Each of the last two listings in the text ordering the creatures numbers 10 only.
    Happy Hunting !!!

    Regards again,
    Hunnytree
    "When you created the book, you also created us."

  10. #30
    moonglitter is offline Getting the hang of it. Copper moonglitter is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Re: ORDER OF THE CREATURES - REVISITED

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunnytree
    Yes, Paula, I began to post my interest in the Order of the Creatures around the end of March, and the first week in April. Please feel free to check out the links and any follow up there might have been.

    I am just delighted that it is coming to the fore again, and that someone thinks it might be significant. Certainly, at the time, I was only impacted by the FACTS...and had no idea what to DO with those facts.

    That's pretty much where I am with it right now - just basing my assumptions on the FACTS detailed in the text. I'm working on an idea I have about what goes in the boxes, in conjunction with Zac's dream (p. 86-87) He saw things he had never seen before, and he put THOSE THINGS in the boxes, which told him where to find the jewels. I think there may be more than one kind of thing in the boxes, and together they spell out the solutions. What things presented in the story had Zac not seen before? The living creatures and the fairies, right?

    My idea is this: We are looking for 12 locations (not including Pook, who I don't think is part of this master key). If you think of a 5x5 grid, how many straight lines of 5 boxes can you make without counting the same line in reverse as a separate item? The answer is 12 -- 5 across, 5 down, and 2 diagonals. So, what if we actually need a combination of 5 different items to get each exact location, that will end up in nice neat rows in this grid? I'm thinking the solution may be something as simple as placing the bugs with their corresponding fairies in the right boxes, and then figuring out what goes in the rest to complete each clue.


    Happy Hunting!
    Paula[/quote]

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