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Thread: Leaf Veins

  1. #1
    enaxor is offline Junior Twelever +1 Bronze enaxor is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Leaf Veins

    Another oddity with this page are the leaf veins on some of the leaves. Some don't have any, some have one or two veins on one side of the leaf while there may be five or six on the other side. Although the companion book doesn't mention a "map cipher" by name, it may be hinting at one with this quote:
    " While the cipher section may be a little too complex for some people, you should at least figure out that a map to a treasure may be written in a language that only the person who hides the treasure can understand--
    This link has an example of a map cipher.

    http://library.thinkquest.org/27158/concept1_12.html

    Note some of the trees in other pictures could also be used with a map cipher.

  2. #2
    shosuro_tadaka is offline Needs to say Hello! shosuro_tadaka is an unknown quantity at this point
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    I played around with this, but got nowhere. I'm convinced it's a cipher, as nowhere else in the book is MS as sloppy at matching up leaf veins. Just not sure how to decode something like this.

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    imported_eotterlei is offline Needs to say Hello! imported_eotterlei is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default I agree with a Tree/Vein type of cipher

    But I am pretty sure the link from the previous post applies to the leaves instead of the branches that the webpage talks about.

    I think that the coordinates can be mapped to a 5x5 grid.

    There is one small flaw, 2 leaves have 6 veins on one side. But other
    than that, each side has 1 to 5 veins on it. There are definate breaks, which tell me seperations in words, but may be irrelevant if it needs to be anagrammed.

    You can map the left side of the veins to the left coordinates of the 5x5 box and the right side of the veins to the top of the 5x5 box.

    1 2 3 4 5
    1 a b c d e
    2 f g h i j
    3 k l m n o
    4 p r s t u
    5 v w x y z

    the key is just an example.

    I have been unsuccesful about where the code starts in both the key (need a key) and in the leaves, which one to start on.

    I started with the leaf with 5 veins on the left and 1 on the right (above the blond faerie... I wrapped around the left and on to the top. Perhaps the result must be anagramed to find the solution/exact location.

    Any thoughts on the order of the leaves or what the leaves with 6 veins mean?

  4. #4
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    searcher is offline Junior Twelever +1 TwelevePlus
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    Default page 44 leaf veins

    Just a thought on the six-veined leaves. Might you wrap around the 5x5 just like Doc suggests in his 5x5's when he uses directions to come up with a ciphertext on the 12 different animal puzzles? I don't suppose it would be impossible for MS to throw a little monkey wrench into the code - make everyone work a little harder. Both of the six-veined leaves come early if you start at the bottom so it logically is not a starting - stopping point. What are you doing with the leaves that have just a central vein and no offshoot veins? Maybe the letters you get need to be (UGH) anagramed. Which way are you counting - from the tip in or stem side out. My guess is it would have to be uniform and both ways need to be tried. This is giving me a migraine, but I'll work on this with you because I think you've got a good idea.

  5. #5
    imported_eotterlei is offline Needs to say Hello! imported_eotterlei is an unknown quantity at this point
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    For consistency I ran 2 scenarios... One where the veins are read from stem to tip for all leaves and vice-versa..

    I created an excel document to calculate everything once a key is placed in the 5x5 grid.. which may have a twist now.. Thanks for the advice, I will look into that.

    For the leaves with no veins, I have left those alone or considered them as spaces.. There are just too many of them on the page to believe they are letters...

    As for anagramming, I am guessing that is right. That gives us a 3 part puzzle here.. Find the key... fill the boxes and either that spells something or it needs to be anagrammed to spell something.

    I think the order of the leaves is a little irrelevant, especially if it would just be anagrammed later on, but if you find the right key, you could start to see words in the output, perhaps with an HT out of place when it is supposed to be a TH...

    I used the "HINT: TACKLE REPOSITORYS" for the key, (not 25 letters) but came up with "pook" in the anagram... Just a coincidence, but enough to keep ATT running my life now.

  6. #6
    jayhawker is offline Junior Twelever Copper jayhawker is an unknown quantity at this point
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    I also have been working on these veins in the leaves...I think I come up with 63 leaves, 2 of them having 6 veins to a side. When I did it again I come up with a different number of leaves and let a lone vein count. Here lies the problems for me:

    1. There are many leaves that 5 or more people would come up with different answers as far as vein count interpretations.

    2. With that many letters, one could spell out almost anything they wish for and what anagram would take that many letters (the most I have come across is 27).?
    3. To top it off, one first needs to find the key for the 5x5...challenges are normal and expected, so there is no complaint here but,

    4. My concern is the clues process is so suggective as far as the interpretation of the vein count. If 9 out of 10 said this is 5,2, yep that is 5,2, right on baby 5,2 , no question 2,1. Is it just me to want everything smug free in my leave veins so my count would be consistent to be called a clue? How many letters are acceptable to be left after doing an anagram to be considered job done, clue determined.( I hope zero).?

    Beside all that, count me in, I am ready to pull this vine down.

    Rock Chalk

  7. #7
    jayhawker is offline Junior Twelever Copper jayhawker is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Correction to above, I only counted 32 leaves not 63 . With 2 leaves having 6 veins on one side.

  8. #8
    agrauer is offline Needs to say Hello! agrauer is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Default Keys--exterus opus or intus opus?

    I got 33 leaves, though one is very small (just above the "middle" fairy's head) and only has one vein on each side.

    This puzzle raises a larger question for me. To what extent are the keys to these puzzles exterus opus, as opposed to intus opus, meaning outside the book as opposed to contained within? Take, for example, the Morse Code border on page 31. Nothing in the book indicated that this was Morse--it was up to the reader to supply that interpretation from outside. The "key" in this case was exterus opus. But Morse Code is a well-known, established simple substitution system. When we are talking about 5x5 grids, map ciphers or other such things, I can come up with an infinite number of possible keys. Some are more plausible than others, granted, but with no direction from the book...well, we would have our work cut out for us.

    So, in general, I wonder to what extent we should be looking for keys within the text to some of the obvious ciphers that exist (the map cipher p. 31, the pig cipher p. 20-21, the 5x5 grids that appear thoughout the book, etc.) or to what extent we are supposed to deduce--or just stumble across--the keys on our own. One obvious thought would be to look on the page with the other like insect. So, for the Dragonfly, look for the key on the other Dragonfly page. Problem is that I don't see much that would help, there.

    Are the "solutions" contained within the book?
    Drew

  9. #9
    sa6race is offline Junior Twelever Bronze sa6race is an unknown quantity at this point
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    agrauer- I have been thinking about this same question. I keep going back to the solution in Masquerade. There was a picture that featured lots of animal puppets hanging from hooks in their eyes. Then the animal puppets had strings attached to certain fingers or toes. Then there were two human puppets, also with strings attached to certain fingers and toes. The solution to the puzzle involved drawing lines from the eyes to the appropriate fingers and toes. Thus, the picture literally showed the reader what to do to solve the puzzle. The reader simply had to repeat what was going on with the strings in the pictures. (It was more complicated than that because the reader had to determine the heirarchy of characters and the order to draw the lines. These instructions were more obscure but they were also shown in the picture.) Could someone have happened upon the solution by accident by drawing lines from different points on the page? Perhaps, but it would have been a one in a million chance. Instead of trial and error, the way to solve the puzzle was to follow the very specific instruction in the picture, to do the thing that was shown in the picture (draw lines). So I have been thinking that there should be a specific instruction like this in ATT, a picture or a piece of text that tells us exactly what to do. I can't figure out what that is, but I think that MS has told us how to decode the location somewhere in the text or pictures. Even if it is possible to stumble across the location by trial and error, I don't think that is what he intended.

  10. #10
    jayhawker is offline Junior Twelever Copper jayhawker is an unknown quantity at this point
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    Sorry for the delay in replying. About the veins (follow me carefully here), lets say we have a leaf pointing to the left with 3 on top and 2 veins on the lower half .. bottom. Now if we twist the leaf clock wise, from 9 to 3, what was on the bottom pointing left is now on top pointing right. So the labelling of leaves pointing left would be top down ... 2/3 in this case. Pointing to the right, would be from bottom up again 2/3 to be consistent. God I hope ur with me. Now here where the problem lies, our left pointing leave 2/3 now moves to the right side with the left side top now being the right side top...no twisting over. Not knowing how the right hand leaves got there we are not sure how to name it 2/3 or 3/2...as you know it does make a difference. With this delimma, we would have to leave the leaf's veins alone and concentrate on the dots and dashes in the horizon. If you want to talk about that lets do it...unless u got an answer.

    Rock Chalk

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