# Thread: Clue 3 a transposition cipher?

1. I spent about an hour a day for several months on his re-arranged grid, and a couple of other very slight permutations.

None of the fingerprints were in my database.

lizzy

2. Yeah, Lizzy---looks like I'm overdoing it (again). Nothing interesting coming up.

However, getting back to basics, I re-read haf's old thread from about a year ago, where several people had come separately to the conclusion that the grid needed to be somehow re-arranged BEFORE the petals should be applied. Adamav's re-arrangement answers this requirement perfectly.

If we use the Borg Collective Principle---that the majority opinion is likelier to be correct---then the probability that a string of 19 letters is the correct solution somewhat outweighs the argument that the letter frequency analysis requires a full grid usage solution. The letter frequency analysis argument is that the grid's 100 letters mirrors nearly exactly what is seen in regular English usage, which implies that each of the 100 letters should be used exactly once in the solution.

But Adamav's re-arrangement has 34 letters circumscribing 34 letters, for a total of 68 letters, or 68% of the grid, so a majority of the letters are already used in that sense, and the 32 excluded letters include the one-hit wonders Q, J, and Z. Thus, the letter frequency argument that the entire grid will appear in the solution begins to weaken. Majority opinion favors a 19-letter solution to the flower pairs.

Flower pairs 8 and 19 are identical, and that means they indicate a letter that appears only once in the grid, probably. In that case, the 19-letter string ends in a letter that appears only once (a rare letter) if indeed the 'message' truly begins in the upper left and winds around clockwise.

The letters Q, J, Z, and X don't really fit the bill. I can see a message ending in P or K more easily. These are all of the single letters in the grid, I believe.

Spiggan posted a brilliant observation regarding the reading of the petal counts based on stem height and thickness. The flower pairs have a thicker stem and a thinner stem, indicating column or row, according to Spiggan's observation that the columns have solid lines and the rows have dotted lines. But she put paid to her argument when she noted that flower pair nine --- the 1,1 petal pair--- have equal stems. This is the seminal clue, because obviously it doesn't matter in this single case whether we use column or row first, because they're the same. I say 'case closed'. The flower pairs are grid coordinates that sometimes read column/row and other times row/column.

This fact is illuminating, because now we know for sure that there are 10 rows and 10 columns. Before this some people (I include myself) were of the opinion that there were supposed to be 10 columns and 9 rows, or vice-versa. However, when you assign a C to the thicker Column stem, and an R to the thinner Row stem, you'll see that both Column and Row contain at least one of the Zero-petal 'buds'. Heretofore we all thought that because the buds appeared only on the left-hand stem we'd have to dispense with either a column or a row to get a 9 x 10 grid.

I'm still thinking that the petal colors have served their purpose (guiding column tinkering to Adamav's starting position). I don't like the fact that the color Yellow appears only once in any of the flowers. Also, I have no guess for the leaves. I'm hoping there's no meaning to them.

Many posts have pointed out flower pair 16---the right hand blossom's five petals have all five colors. On page 20 of ATT the Spider knot just above the left hand Spider contains all 5 colors. It didn't mean anything in the end. I'm not saying anything negative, just pointing out that it might not mean anything.

There are 100's if not 1000's of Clue 3 posts here and on ATT's old forum. They represent thousands of working man-hours. I will unashamedly play the role of thought-thief and try to pin the tail on the donkey.

Perchprism

3. I agree, the old posts on Clue 3 are probably like a gold mine. It takes a lot of patience, but I bet it's worthwhile to go through the posts from the beginning and take notes and try to add different people's observations together to get new angles. Somewhere in there is the path tho the right solve, probably!

4. I looked at Adamav's grid rearrangement, and the general idea is intriguing, but I guess I don't quite follow exactly how he/she arrived at it. I know the "adventurer" column was moved, and then I think the columns were rotated up or down (like in a Jefferson wheel). But Adamav must have taken it further than just moving the columns, because some of the letters in the columns themselves are out of order. IMO, the extra manipulation to get the letters of the colors to line up looks somewhat arbitrary and forced...because you could get those letters to spell out anything you want them to if you move them around in directions you choose. Just like in a long anagram. Maybe I'm missing that something Adamav did. I was rereading that thread, hoping Adamav would explain exactly how the grid was rearranged. Was anyone able to duplicate the method?

One observation to add. It's been posted that there is "only one repeat" in the petal-count coords--the two 1/5 pairs. But one of these pairs has the thick/tall stem on the left, the thin/short stem on the right. The other pair has that reversed. So (if the thick/tall stem indicates the column, the thin/short stem the row) one pair would be 1/5 and the other pair would be 5/1. That means no repeats.

It seams meaningful somehow that there would be no repeats in the coords. I have no idea what that would point to. I agree that these are obviously grid coordinates, but do you think the idea of "no repeats" might point to using the 19 coordinates for more than just a 19-letter string? Maybe the grid coordinates don't rule out a transposition.

5. I guess I should have double checked--yes the two 1/5 pairs are the same in every respect (except colors). So it is a 1/5 repeat. So, I'm still wondering like before, what does it mean that there's just a SINGLE repeat. Edit that.

6. It doesn't look like the order of each column was manipulated - just moved up (or down). Here is the method:

Col 1 (ADVENTURER) - keep the same
Col 2 - move down 1 (or up 9 )
Col 3 - move down 2 (or up 8 )
Col 4 - move down 1 (or up 9 )
Col 5 - move down 5 (or up 5 )
Col 6 - move down 1 (or up 9 )
Col 7 - move down 2 (or up 8 )
Col 8 - move down 5 (or up 5 )
Col 9 - move down 2 (or up 8 )
Col 10 - move down 8 (or up 2 )

Adamav then shifted all the columns over 4 to the right so that none of the colors were broken up. Has anyone tried the coordinates without shifting over 4 yet? Perhaps the ADVENTURER column wasn't meant to be shifted.

7. ## grid

Spiggan,
I actually used the toilet paper tube and made the "rings" from the
columns cut apart, to recreate Adamav's rearranged grid. The only
thing he did, other than roll the columns up or down, was move the
last three columns (numbers 8,9,10) from the right of the grid,to the
left. No letters were changed from their original positions in the
separate columns.

AP

8. ## no shifting

Suelough,
I made the "tube" for just the reason you said.
I wanted to see what the grid would look like
with the columns moved up and down to create
the color-words, but with the columns in their
original places (with ADVENTURER on the left)
I did not see any words formed or patterns
created in the grid.
AP

9. I finally see now how he did it with just the columns. It took me a little while. I was blind I guess!

It is interesting that the colors show up. Still, a couple of things about the rearrangement bother me a little. For one thing, the colors aren't spelled out in a straight line, and some of them have to be anagrammed, like "violet" and "orange". If MS wanted us to arrange the grid to get the colors spelled out, why wouldn't have he have put the letters in a neat straight line? I'm not saying it's wrong, but the anagrams bother me.

The other thing that still jumps out at me in that rearranged grid is that weird word "adventurer". As perchprism said, maybe that word was the best he could do to make the colors fit. But I guess I was hoping that the rearranged grid would spell out something that would put the word "adventurer" into context and explain why he chose that strange word. "Adventurer" is still so odd and out of place.

10. To answer Suelough's question, I haven't tried the coordinates on an unshifted grid. If the darker (bolder) stem is supposed to be used first, I'll call it 'C' for Column stem (it could be the row), and the lesser stem is R for Row. Then starting from the upper left and going clockwise:

1. C/R bud/two (I'll call it a bud, because we don't know if it's zero or ten)

2. R/C 4/6

3. C/R 4/9

4. R/C bud/7

5. R/C 1/8

6. C/R 2/5

7. R/C 2/7

8. C/R 1/5

9. C/R--R/C 1/1

10 C/R 1/6

11. C/R 9/5

12. R/C bud/3

13. C/R 5/2

14. R/C bud/9

15. C/R 1/3

16. C/R 4/5

17. C/R bud/5

18. R/C 7/3

19. C/R 1/5

The above is how I'm reading it---does anyone see any problems with it?

Perchprism